Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

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Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Kunzang8 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:59 pm

Hi

What are the differences between the Sakya and Gelug lineages of VY? I understand that the Gelug VY originally came from Sakya but I heard there are differences in the practice itself. Within the limits of what can be discussed in a public forum could someone please explain to me what the main differences in practice between the two lineages? Thank you.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:55 pm

Kunzang8 wrote:Hi

What are the differences between the Sakya and Gelug lineages of VY? I understand that the Gelug VY originally came from Sakya but I heard there are differences in the practice itself. Within the limits of what can be discussed in a public forum could someone please explain to me what the main differences in practice between the two lineages? Thank you.


The Gelug form has differences in how the guru yoga is performed (it is more elaborate), how the offerings are made, how the mantra is visualized, and so on. Primarily the Gelug form merely makes the sadhana practice more elaborate.

M
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby lkug.pa » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:20 am

Did you check the site http://vajrayogini.com/index.php?

Both saddhanas are there, may be you can compare it by your self.


PD: Check out http://amuletforums.com/threads/vajrayo ... ism.32896/
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:49 pm

When I met Lama Migmar in Europe and asked him this question he did say the Gelug Vajrayogini incorporated some longer elements in the offering section and different word choices in other parts of the sadhana, but that he felt there were no major, significant differences. I was a little surprised because I heard several Sakya lamas were not so happy with their VY practice being co-opted and popularized so widely by Gelug Lamas.(Lama Migmar is a scholar and teacher in the Sakya tradition).
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Kunzang8 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:51 am

lkug.pa wrote:Did you check the site http://vajrayogini.com/index.php?

Both saddhanas are there, may be you can compare it by your self.


PD: Check out http://amuletforums.com/threads/vajrayo ... ism.32896/



I tried to join Vajrayogini.com but got no reply. I thought this site has been abandoned>
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:19 pm

JKhedrup wrote:When I met Lama Migmar in Europe and asked him this question he did say the Gelug Vajrayogini incorporated some longer elements in the offering section and different word choices in other parts of the sadhana, but that he felt there were no major, significant differences. I was a little surprised because I heard several Sakya lamas were not so happy with their VY practice being co-opted and popularized so widely by Gelug Lamas.(Lama Migmar is a scholar and teacher in the Sakya tradition).


Basically, the pre-Pabhongkha tradition of VY is unchanged from the Sakya presentation. But Pabhongkha made a number of changes to the tradition based on his own intellectual ideas of how the practice should be brought into line with the broader Cakrasamvara tradition.

Since Pabhongkha made fundamental changes to the tradition, Sakya lineage masters will not bestow the uncommon Vajrayogini instructions on someone who has only received the tradition from Pabhongkha lineage. They [meaning HH Sakya Trizin, Jetsun Kusho and others] will require you to receive both a two-day empowerment in Hevajra or Cakrasamvara as well as Vajrayogini blessing from a major Sakya lineage holder as a prerequisite even if you have received these in Gelug.

Also, HH Dalai Lama is not fond of the fact that Vajrayogini has eclipsed more traditional Gelug practices and has stated this.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:56 pm

Yes, this is very clear. HHDL wishes the focus in Gelug to be on Tsongkhapa's traditional gsang bde jigs gsum- Guyasamaja, Chakrasamvara and Yamantaka. At the same time, he has done retreat on Vajrayogini and said it may be appropriate "if the lama sees the disciple has a special connection with it."

Also, Gsang Bde Jigs Gsum in the standard expectation of fully qualified scholars, and from time to time HHDL does recommend and give initiations into other practices, such as Kalachakra, of course, Hayagriva, Vajrakilaya and Chittamani Tara (which he gave an initiation for in Bloomington). HHDL mentioned the importance of Hayagriva especially and encourages this practice. In Geshe Sonam's alma mater Sera Jey, there is a yearly approximation retreat on Hayagriva with fire puja and the entire monastic assembly is expected to attend.

I would happily take a Sakya Vajrayogini initiation if the opportunity arose from HHST or Jetsun Kushok-la. The thing is, though, I am not sure if the Sakya ngondro and things would be required before taking this.(I am ashamed to say I am pretty ignorant about how things work in Sakya). It would be great to get the empowerment from the source tradition, and the lama who I took it from in Gelug recommends people to take initiations from HHST.

I was just surprised that Lama Migmar reacted to the question. I was very curious, and wanted to ask, but was half expecting a "Ah Yes the Gelugs co-opted one of our treasured inner practices bit", so his open response was a pleasant surprise. He actually said there were some interesting commentaries in the Gelug tradition, though of course, that the Sakyas "held the complete lineage with uncommon instructions etc." (paraphrasing as this was awhile ago).
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:28 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
I would happily take a Sakya Vajrayogini initiation if the opportunity arose from HHST or Jetsun Kushok-la. The thing is, though, I am not sure if the Sakya ngondro and things would be required before taking this.


The Sakyapas would not require you to complete ngondro before receiving this transmission.



I was just surprised that Lama Migmar reacted to the question. I was very curious, and wanted to ask, but was half expecting a "Ah Yes the Gelugs co-opted one of our treasured inner practices bit", so his open response was a pleasant surprise.


Lama Migmar (Khenpo, actually) is a great proponent of Vajrayogini as well as Tara. He feels that Vajrayogini is the ideal practice for this day and age, and as such, approves of its wide spread amongst Gelug, and anywhere else for that matter.

He actually said there were some interesting commentaries in the Gelug tradition, though of course, that the Sakyas "held the complete lineage with uncommon instructions etc." (paraphrasing as this was awhile ago).


Yes, in fact the most detailed commentary on the practice was composed by a Geshe who happened to be a disciple of Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo.

The fact of the matter however is that the Yogini practice is elaborated based on the Sakyapa understanding of tantra, and so therefore, reading such texts as rgyud sde spyi rnams and so on will assist in how one understands the practice.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:43 pm

Thanks Malcolm this is interesting information, I will definitely follow up. If HHST gives it in India it might be possible, but in Europe I have to work most weekends so it is more difficult. rgyud sde spyi rnams is definitely something I will look into. Can I get the text online or should I ask a friend of mine at Dzongsar Shedra to send it?
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:00 am

JKhedrup wrote:Thanks Malcolm this is interesting information, I will definitely follow up. If HHST gives it in India it might be possible, but in Europe I have to work most weekends so it is more difficult. rgyud sde spyi rnams is definitely something I will look into. Can I get the text online or should I ask a friend of mine at Dzongsar Shedra to send it?



rgyud sde spyi rnams (Sonam Tsemo):

http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O01CT0026|O01C ... 981$W22271

rin po che ljong shing (Dragpa Gyaltsen):

http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O01CT0026|O01C ... 025$W22271

These two texts are like the sun and the moon of Sakya view and practice. If you read these, you will understood very perfectly the point of view of the Sakyapa school on everything from sutra to tantra.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:48 am

Dear Malcolm,

Thank you so much! I will work on these slowly, slowly. And Geshe Sonam will be grateful as well as he will be presenting Parting from the Four Attachments this Autumn and said that to prepare we should look at some Sakya texts together.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:26 am

Malcolm wrote:Basically, the pre-Pabhongkha tradition of VY is unchanged from the Sakya presentation. But Pabhongkha made a number of changes to the tradition based on his own intellectual ideas of how the practice should be brought into line with the broader Cakrasamvara tradition.
While we're on the topic...Why did Pabhongkha like Vajrayogini so much? Considering him, I would assume he would have been a strict 'Tsongkhapa's three' purist.

(Everyone, let's please not make this one of those threads)
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby lama tsewang » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:19 am

is the book by sonam tsemo, the book translater as yoginis eye??
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:30 pm

Konchog1 wrote:While we're on the topic...Why did Pabhongkha like Vajrayogini so much? Considering him, I would assume he would have been a strict 'Tsongkhapa's three' purist.

(Everyone, let's please not make this one of those threads)


Pabhongkha, when he was younger, had a close relationship with one of the Zimog Tulkus of Nalendra Phenpo, from whom he received most of the Sakya traditions he favored (such as four faced Mahākala, and so on).

Apparently (since I have not actually read his bio), he had a vision of Vajrayogini who encouraged him to merge the stream of Naro Khachö teachings with the view of Tsongkhapa.

In one sense, Yogini was an ideal practice for this -- it (unlike Lamdre) does not have any extensive instructions of view on its own, being purely a practice cycle. So in Sakya, Yogini is practiced in the broader context of the Lamdre view. One common approach is that Hevajra is used for working on creation stage, and Yogini for completion stage.

Secondly, Pabhongkha was a specialist in Cakrasamvara, and Yogini is the essence of Cakrasamvara practice. If one practices Yogini, the entire Cakrasamvara mandala is included.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:31 pm

lama tsewang wrote:is the book by sonam tsemo, the book translater as yoginis eye??
tsewang



Yes. However the title is incorrect. There is no mention of a yogini's eye anywhere in the text.
I have also translated this text, but it is still in editing mode.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Wayne Verrill » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:22 pm

I apologize for the long delay in responding to the last post under this topic, but the matter has just come to my attention. The actual title of Sonam Tsemo's book appears on Volume 3, page 146, line 3 in the Sa-skya bKa'-'bum edition and on Volume 1, page 574, line 3 of the Lam-'bras Tshogs-bshad edition. The translation of this section is in the Epilogue on page 531. The actual Tibetan term is rnal-'byor mig, which literally translates as Yoga Eye. The fact that this is the title is confirmed by many commentators who refer to the root text by this name. Since Yoga Eye is a bit awkward in English, I took the liberty of changing it to Yogini's Eye, justified on the basis of the Hevajra Tantra being identified as a Yogini Tantra (see pages 290-297 in the translation). This issue was actually referred to on page 5 of the Translator's Introduction.

The other portion of the title appears on line 6 of the same pages in the editions cited above. The Tibetan is ma-lus-pa, literally "nothing left out", which corresponds to Comprehensive in the title . This covers the parts of the title not included on the original root text title page.

My e-mail address appears at the bottom of page 32 at the end of the Translator's Introduction. It is there to allow anyone who has questions, difficulties, disagreements, objections, etc. to be able to write to me to get my explanation before posting on a site such as this.

This is my first posting to this site, so I hope the formatting comes out ok.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:27 am

Wayne Verrill wrote:I apologize for the long delay in responding to the last post under this topic, but the matter has just come to my attention. The actual title of Sonam Tsemo's book appears on Volume 3, page 146, line 3 in the Sa-skya bKa'-'bum edition and on Volume 1, page 574, line 3 of the Lam-'bras Tshogs-bshad edition. The translation of this section is in the Epilogue on page 531. The actual Tibetan term is rnal-'byor mig, which literally translates as Yoga Eye. The fact that this is the title is confirmed by many commentators who refer to the root text by this name. Since Yoga Eye is a bit awkward in English, I took the liberty of changing it to Yogini's Eye, justified on the basis of the Hevajra Tantra being identified as a Yogini Tantra (see pages 290-297 in the translation). This issue was actually referred to on page 5 of the Translator's Introduction. .


It's "eye of yoga" as the Tibetan bears out, and it is not the common title of the text, rgyud sde spyi rnam is the common title. The full title of course is rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa bzhugs so .

The line in question says "rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa rnal 'byor mig", i.e. "The General Presentation of the Divisions of Tantra is the eye of yoga...", etc.

So I have to disagree with your contention that "Eye of Yoga" is the title in that line, rather, it is a descriptive of what the text is supposed to do, i.e. provide an eye on yoga.

Further, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen refers to this text simply by the name rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa in the the rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa dang rgyud kyi mngon par rtogs pa'i stong thun sa bcad.

The Hevajra Tantra is not merely an Yogini Tantra, it is also a yogatantra, for this reason Loppon Rinpoche explains that Hevajra is non-dual tantra based on this passage from Vajrapañjara:

    The Hevajra yogatantra
    was explained by the Victor first.
    Later the yoginītantra
    similarly is for the conversion of women.

Loppon Rinpoche adds:

    True, it may be called “ḍākinītantra”. That does not contradict a nondual method and discriminating wisdom tantra because discriminating wisdom tantra is necessary in nondual tantra.

When Lowo Khenchen [rgyud sde spyi rnam gsal byed sogs, pg. 18], defines the reason for the name rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa, he states, "Loppon Sonam Tsemo's composition has four synonyms: 1) The tantra division 2) the general presentation 3) an introduction to all tantras 4) the eye of yoga."

However, that does not justify "the yogini's eye" as a title. In fact, the formal title given in the colophon is actually, The General Presentation of the Tantra Divisions, an Introduction to all
Tantras.


If you were to retitle the book, The Eye of Yoga would be a better choice, in my opinion.
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