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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:12 pm 
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oushi wrote:
In which you also have to believe, right?
If somebody said to you that a consequence of realisation is green eyes, and all the people that you met that were (theoretically) realised had green eyes, would it then be a belief or a proof?
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gregkavarnos wrote:
And what is the guarantee that my assessment is not based in delusion and ignorance?

No suffering.
Well, I can guarantee you that I am suffering, so it seems my assessments will be based in delusion.
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Are you certain that Buddha actually said what is written in sutras, that translations are always reliable, and nobody faked them?
Of course not. But it doesn't really bother me if somebody faked them, IF what is being said (when applied) leads to a reduction in suffering or an increase in knowledge/wisdom. I mean, I am not going to reject the teachings of Nagarjuna (for example) just because it does not say: "Thus have I heard..." at the beginning of each teaching. On the other hand I also do not reject out of hand the possibility that many of the Sutra and Sutta (and Tantra) were actually spoken or taught by the Buddha.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:32 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
it doesn't really bother me if somebody faked them [what is written in sutras], IF what is being said (when applied) leads to a reduction in suffering or an increase in knowledge/wisdom.


I guess that makes sense, because Buddhism is about the cessation of suffering, not the "reduction" of suffering. Just about anything could be interpreted to reduce suffering and increase knowledge/wisdom, in hindsight. After all, we learn from mistakes. :tongue:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:29 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
brendan wrote:
"the Buddha was an enlightened being"

Maybe you meant "the Buddha _is_ an enlightened being".
NEWS FLASH: Shakyamuni Buddha is dead! Sorry to be the one to break it to you but...


You are describing the view of nihilism (one that the Buddha rejected).

This is a Buddhist website.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:19 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:
In which you also have to believe, right?
If somebody said to you that a consequence of realisation is green eyes, and all the people that you met that were (theoretically) realised had green eyes, would it then be a belief or a proof?

Only if you believe in his words. Sorry, still a belief.
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Of course not. But it doesn't really bother me if somebody faked them, IF what is being said (when applied) leads to a reduction in suffering or an increase in knowledge/wisdom.

Only cassation of suffering is a confirmation for me, but I agree with the rest.
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I mean, I am not going to reject the teachings of Nagarjuna (for example) just because it does not say: "Thus have I heard..." at the beginning of each teaching. On the other hand I also do not reject out of hand the possibility that many of the Sutra and Sutta (and Tantra) were actually spoken or taught by the Buddha.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:05 am 
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shel wrote:
...because Buddhism is about the cessation of suffering, not the "reduction" of suffering...
Ultimately, yes. In the meantime...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:05 am 
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The buddha is something more than the individual person Guatama. The Buddha said 'he who sees the Dharma sees me'. The dharma is not just a person - although it is interesting to reflect on the worship of relics of the Buddha. In any case it is certainly the case that the Buddha is not simply a person. That is why he is referred to as tathagatha rather than by a personal pronoun.

So I think Muni is on the right track.

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Last edited by Wayfarer on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:34 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:
Only cassation of suffering is a confirmation for me...
So while you sit around waiting for suffering to suddenly end...

Just like a fireman trying to stop a fire, he must aim at the right direction, that is towards the fire itself or the source of the fire so to stop the fire and not aiming at the car next door.
Waiting is direction-less and of no use.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:00 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
...because Buddhism is about the cessation of suffering, not the "reduction" of suffering...
Ultimately, yes. In the meantime...

In the meantime we suffer. See how that works now?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:04 pm 
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oushi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:
Only cassation of suffering is a confirmation for me...
So while you sit around waiting for suffering to suddenly end...

... you are trying to be sarcastic.
Nope, I am trying to show you that Buddhist practice reduces suffering, as well as leading to the cessation of suffering. It's not like one day you are suffering and BAM! you are not suffering at all. It's a slow and sometimes tedious process, but things actually do get better as you go along. You actually feel less suffering as you slowly let go of clinging and aversion towards phenomena. Step by step. Soemetimes backsliding, sometimes rapid progress... So, quite clearly, Buddhist practices actually reduce suffering until finally you reach enlightenment, the cessation of suffering.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:10 pm 
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shel wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
...because Buddhism is about the cessation of suffering, not the "reduction" of suffering...
Ultimately, yes. In the meantime...

In the meantime we suffer. See how that works now?
I dunno about you but I have definitely seen a reduction in suffering as a consequnece of my practice. Without a doubt. A shift in the way I react to feelings and phenomena. Increased patience. A capacity to see "through" situations that would normally have swept me along. A capacity to be aware of my emotional states and their causes and outcomes. Etc... If you have not, then I would recommend you reassess your practice. Take it up with your teacher and see what changes they may recommend. That's what your teacher is there for, after all.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Buddhism is not a self improvement project, gregkavarnos. If that we're the case then all anyone would have to do is visit the self help section at the corner book store. Buddhism is about the cessation of suffering.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:47 pm 
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oushi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
It's not like one day you are suffering and BAM!

I'm glad that you speak with such confidence about how it really is. Words of such a living Buddha are most welcome.
I'm just reporting what my teachers tell me (and based on my personal experience as an unenlightened fool trying to realise the enlightened state). If your teachers (or personal experience) tell you otherwise then please feel free to completely disregard what I said.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:54 pm 
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oushi wrote:
You must know the right direction then. What is it?

Maybe this quote from the book will help and provide a clue "The Buddha and his teachings":
Quote:
Nibbana is attainable in this present life itself if the seeker fits himself for it.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:11 pm 
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shel wrote:
"I'm just reporting what my teachers tell me"

This is deferring to an authority. If you understand what they've told you then you shouldn't need to do this.
I have enough control over my ego to recognise that any progress I am making, personally, is a consequence of the training and knowledge that I have received from my teachers. I am indebted to my teachers for having given me the tools to be able to practice. The tools did not come from my self. I am grateful that they have privileged me with the means to realise the "path with no goal". I have no problem deferring to their authority since it is quite clear to me that they are infinitely more adept then me. I am under no delusion that I could have arrived where I am now without their help. I know VERY well where I would be right now if it was not for their generosity and compassion. This is not to say that it has not taken any effort on my behalf, of course it has, but to discount their authority in order to further inflate my ego? I don't think so. It has been my good karma to have encountered teachers whose goal was to help me towards enlightenment (sure i have encountered some frauds too, but they just taught me a different lesson), I am not about to spit in their faces. To ignore their words. I sincerely hope that you too may have the merit to meet with teachers that you can love and trust, teachers that will help you realise the "path with no goal".

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:58 pm 
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I have temporarily locked the thread to clean it up. I have received complaints concerning ad hominems, etc. Picking on people will not be tolerated.

Sarcasm should probably be avoided because it does not translate well.

I will unlock the thread in a bit because I will be away from the Internet much of the rest of the afternoon. I will review the postings I removed to see if any can be redeemed.

I will have some PM's to send to several people this evening. Please be respectful of one another.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:50 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
"I'm just reporting what my teachers tell me"

This is deferring to an authority. If you understand what they've told you then you shouldn't need to do this.
I have enough control over my ego to recognise that any progress I am making, personally, is a consequence of the training and knowledge that I have received from my teachers.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Even if someone did not have control of their ego, whatever that in itself is supposed to mean, they could still recognize progress of some sort.

Quote:
I have no problem deferring to their authority since it is quite clear to me that they are infinitely more adept then me.

I'm suggesting that you shouldn't need to defer to their authority if you have understood what they've told you.

Quote:
I am under no delusion that I could have arrived where I am now without their help. I know VERY well where I would be right now if it was not for their generosity and compassion. This is not to say that it has not taken any effort on my behalf, of course it has, but to discount their authority in order to further inflate my ego?

"discount their authority in order to further inflate my ego" ??? What does that mean? Who is asking you to discount their authority? and why would discounting their authority, if for some reason you were to do that, further inflate your ego? Are your teachers are completely infallible?

Quote:
It has been my good karma to have encountered teachers whose goal was to help me towards enlightenment (sure i have encountered some frauds too, but they just taught me a different lesson), I am not about to spit in their faces.

Spitting in their face would be over-the-top I think, but... you have perhaps discounted their authority by at least some small margin?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:26 am 
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brendan wrote:
You are describing the view of nihilism (one that the Buddha rejected).

This is a Buddhist website.


Quote:
How the Blessed One Passed into Nibbana
9. And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling.

10. And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away."

"No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling."

11. Then the Blessed One, rising from the cessation of perception and feeling, entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the fourth jhana. Rising from the fourth jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the first jhana.

Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away...

13. And when the Blessed One had passed away, simultaneously with his Parinibbana, Brahma Sahampati spoke this stanza:

All must depart — all beings that have life
Must shed their compound forms. Yea, even one,
A Master such as he, a peerless being,
Powerful in wisdom, the Enlightened One, has passed away.

14. And when the Blessed One had passed away, simultaneously with his Parinibbana, Sakka, king of the gods, spoke this stanza:

Transient are all compounded things,
Subject to arise and vanish;
Having come into existence they pass away;
Good is the peace when they forever cease.
15. And when the Blessed One had passed away, simultaneously with his Parinibbana, the Venerable Anuruddha spoke this stanza:

No movement of the breath, but with steadfast heart,
Free from desires and tranquil — so the sage
Comes to his end. By mortal pangs unshaken,
His mind, like a flame extinguished, finds release.

16. And when the Blessed One had passed away, simultaneously with his Parinibbana, the Venerable Ananda spoke this stanza:

Then there was terror, and the hair stood up, when he,
The All-accomplished One, the Buddha, passed away.

17. Then, when the Blessed One had passed away, some bhikkhus, not yet freed from passion, lifted up their arms and wept; and some, flinging themselves on the ground, rolled from side to side and wept, lamenting: "Too soon has the Blessed One come to his Parinibbana! Too soon has the Happy One come to his Parinibbana! Too soon has the Eye of the World vanished from sight!"

But the bhikkhus who were freed from passion, mindful and clearly comprehending, reflected in this way: "Impermanent are all compounded things. How could this be otherwise?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:36 am 
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shel wrote:
I don't know what that's supposed to mean... Spitting in their face would be over-the-top I think, but... you have perhaps discounted their authority by at least some small margin?


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If the guru's words
but enter the heart,

it's as if you have been handed
assurance.

Saraha says:
The world is deceived by lies;

the childish can't perceive
their innermost nature.


Quote:
Another can't tell you
your innermost nature;

apart from the guru's teaching
it's never seen.

In it,
not a single flaw exists:

it's purified,
right and wrong both consumed.
Saraha in Tantric Treasures: Three Collections of Mystical Verse from Buddhist India.

Quote:
The teacher who is guiding should at best have completed the qualities of abandonment and realization himself, and know the level of development of the students. If such a teacher is not available, it should be someone who has not
just requested, obtained, and practiced the Dharma in a superficial manner, and left it at that, but rather someone who has himself practiced with perseverance and brought forth faultless meditative experiences, and who can guide others in accordance with it. Other kinds of guidance, like the boisterous instructions of a charlatan, the invented instructions of a pretentious person, the textual explanations of someone with little knowledge, and the misleading instructions of a braggart should be avoided. The word explanations of a scholar, the practical instructions of a great meditator, the guidance based on experience of a yogi, the wisdom instructions of a realized master, and the pointing-out instructions from an old woman are compatible in purpose.
Karmapa Wangchug Dorje in Mahamudra - The Ocean of True Meaning.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:48 am 
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I cannot find the posts back in which I asked Greg how the Buddha could die since he is not merely a body and Greg provided me an aswer.

I just come back on that since how phenomena appear (conventional) and how phenomena are (absolute) one just cannot understand by debate or talking about, right?

Form-emptiness/emptiness-form. :meditate:

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Last edited by muni on Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:42 am 
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You mean this post?
gregkavarnos wrote:
Buddha Shakyamuni was not merely the form skhanda, but his existence as Buddha Shakyamuni included the form skhanda, the form skhanda (like all skhanda) is impermanent and no longer exists as it existed when he was alive. Siddartha Gautama is dead. This is not seperating the relative and ultimate truths, quite the contrary, it is taking into account the relative truth too. Saying "he is not dead", is seperating the ultimate and relative truths. Saying "he is not dead" is a denial of the relative truth.
Yes?

muni wrote:
I just come back on that since how phenomena appear (conventional) and how phenomena are (absolute) one just cannot understand by debate or talking about, right?

Form-emptiness/emptiness-form. :meditate:
One can understand the inseperability of form and emptiness through discussion and debate, but whether this leads to realisation or not is another matter.

The absolute and the conventional are not two seperate things: phenomena arise because of emptiness, they are empty because they arise.

It is not: emptiness over here, phenomena over there. But I am sure that you are aware of this.

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