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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:45 pm 
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eijo wrote:
You've never said what you mean by "legitimate", and a better answer would hinge on that.


Meaning a sadhana associated with Mahavairocana requires the Mahavairocana empowerment, so if you have the empowerment, then you should be able to do the sadhana, even without a teacher (the text itself, as I have seen, may not say you need a teacher).

Basically I'm saying you fulfil the requirements as a text states (not external expectations), rendering the practice legitimate. I looked at one sadhana that simply states you need the empowerment.

In any case, it all seems quite subjective and up in the air. At your own risk, so they say.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:
At your own risk, so they say.


That sums it up nicely for me.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:

If you're referring to oral instructions that are passed down from generation to generation, I'm sceptical these instructions would actually reflect the original practice and oral commentary, supposing such a thing existed apart from the text from the start. Things change in transmission and translation.


In the Tibetan tradition, there are two levels when it comes to tantra -- the ripening empowerment and the liberating instruction. You are not really qualified to practice sadhana without instruction i.e. the liberating instruction. Beyond this, upadeshas are necessary, which define the key points of practice that arise from the experience of realized masters in the lineage. So generally, to be fully equipped to practice in a given Indo-Tibetan practice lineage such as Lamdre, Naro Khachod, etc., (no matter what school) or even Yogatantra such as Sarvavidyā, you need three things: empowerment, instructions and upadeshas.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:49 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
In the Tibetan tradition...


Fair enough, but the texts I've looked at themselves don't mention these things, which from a scholarly point of view makes me wonder how much was added on top of them after they were translated. The content might remain static, but the expectations and conditions associated with a given text or practice seem often to have been multiplied and amplified. This isn't wrong, but just makes you wonder if the model of 2013 accurately reflects what they were doing in the 9th century.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:06 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
In the Tibetan tradition...


Fair enough, but the texts I've looked at themselves don't mention these things, which from a scholarly point of view makes me wonder how much was added on top of them after they were translated. The content might remain static, but the expectations and conditions associated with a given text or practice seem often to have been multiplied and amplified. This isn't wrong, but just makes you wonder if the model of 2013 accurately reflects what they were doing in the 9th century.


Indian tantric texts themselves this give triad of teachings, so it is not some invention of Tibetans. If your goal is adherence to some Indian idea of tantric practice, then your best bet is to become educated in the Sakya school's tradition. Four of the five founding masters of Sakya were conversationally fluent in Sanskrit and studied with the great Indian pandits of their day who came to Tibet. As far as the Sakya school is concerned, its early textual tradition is a direct import of 10th/11th century Indian Buddhist tantrism and its procedures and values. Granted, the Sakya school's practices underwent consolidation and streamlining, but is in general very faithful to how things were being done in India during the 10th and 11th century, especially in lower tantra.

M

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:32 am 
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Am I allowed to open this thread up again?

This is a very interesting thread and I think it is one of the most interesting threads I have read here on the dharmawheel.

It reminds me of an instance where we were talking about if a highest yoga empowerment (chakasamvara) from one of the other schools of Tibetan Buddhism qualified on to receive Vajrayogini in the geluk tradition.
I asked one master if this was so and he answered something like 'it fulfills the Indian tradition, but maybe not the Tibetan tradition' his reasoning was that if one was receiving these empowerments in india before tantric buddhism went to tibet, there was no geluk, kagyu, etc.
Maybe the same principle applies here.
Kobo Daishi didn't receive his abisheka from a shingon master, did he?

Either way this is a very interesting thread and it seems the participants are all very knowledgable (with the exception of myself)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:47 am 
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Kobo Daishi didn't receive his abisheka from a shingon master, did he?

yes, he most certainly did, a very distinguished one in China.

Kukai's master was Hui-Kuo, one of the foremost pupilsl of Amoghavajra and by Kukai's day recognized as Amoghavajra's successor. There were monks from Korea, Central Asia and Java studing Esoteric Buddhism under Hui-Kuo. Kukai received his abhisheka from him in Ch'ang-an. Abe, Weaving of Mantra p.122
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:08 am 
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I'm not sure that Hui-Kuo would have identified himself as a shingon master.
I imagine he considered himself to teach mizong 密宗. I doubt anyone in china at that time was calling their sect shingon.
I believe shingon is a Japanese word.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:56 am 
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Since Kukai was the founder of the Shingon sect it's logically impossible that he could receive initiation from a Shingon master, so I assumed you were using the word generically. Sorry; he was initiated by the Chinese tantric master Huiguo.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:23 pm 
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Fortyeightvows wrote:
I'm not sure that Hui-Kuo would have identified himself as a shingon master.
I imagine he considered himself to teach mizong 密宗. I doubt anyone in china at that time was calling their sect shingon.
I believe shingon is a Japanese word.


It is possible that tantric practice in China was known as 眞言宗 because tantra is also sometimes referred to as the Mantra vehicle, Mantrayana, and 眞言 is one translation of mantra.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:32 am 
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It doesn't matter to the point I was trying to make.


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