Yidam and Dzogchen

narraboth
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by narraboth »

Sönam wrote:What is happening in that threat is quite classical, we found it many time in history, it's called "the fight between veterans and moderns" (La bataille d'Hernani).
It is so simple that veterans cannot see it ... they have invested so much, how can they give up all that ? It's their identity. And they fight strongly (harshly) to defend their certitude ... I won't fight with them, they are so proudly sure to be right ... They are veterans.
Let's surprize them once more ...

Dzogchen is rigpa.
When not rigpa, it's not Dzogchen.
Ngondrö, creation and completion, tantric practices and so on
are not rigpa, they are not Dzogchen.
They cannot lead to rigpa,
They cannot not lead to Dzogchen.
When not rigpa, then sem.
What do I do with sem, when not rigpa,
Madhyamaka non-reasonning is sem best occupation,
What else could I do ?

May all beings found freedom and the way to freedom
Sönam

"They cannot lead to rigpa,
They cannot not lead to Dzogchen."

Finger is not moon; sems is not rigpa; but if sems can't lead to rigpa, nothing can lead to rigpa. If only rigpa can lead to rigpa, then there is no hope for people who don't understand rigpa to realise it.
Remember, the devotion to guru is also sems, like accumulating merits and purifying karma are sems.
If you are not at rigpa state, or not firmly at rigpa state due to our countless previous lives habit, you need to train your mind with methods belong to sems. Devotion to guru is one of great methods, ngondro is also one. Theoritically, none of them is necessary as long as you can understand rigpa; however when you can't stay at rigpa state always, methods are necessary for you.

It's really not about old or new, it's about practical or fantastical.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by muni »

"Deep confidence and devotion in an authentic spiritual master, the transmission can genuinely take place when the teacher is by the disciple be seen as Buddha. Than sem disolves in vastness of natural flow. then remain in perfect simplicity." Lama of Shechen.

Suspiciousness about "others" or decieving own being; no help.
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Sönam
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Sönam »

Mariusz wrote:
Sönam wrote: They cannot not lead to Dzogchen.
When not rigpa, then sem.
What do I do with sem, when not rigpa,
Madhyamaka non-reasonning is sem best occupation,
Not quite so. Madhyamaka, kyerim, dzogrim of course are needed for Dzogchen according to the practioner. I mean illusion-like needed, to be out from Marigpa.

Madhyamaka/Yogacara pointing out: without the possibility of the "unblurred" there will be "no business even saying Arya Nagarjuna's name". This is what connect us with buddhahood during the Path, because of the Buddha nature, the perfect nature possibility and the skilful usage of "illusory" (dependent nature) during this Path. This illusory "the dependent" of course is needed, not only Yogacara says it, but Svatantrika also. Moreover even in Dzogchen it is pointing out so-called Alaya made of Marigpa is necessary for the practice when the separation (Rushen) from Rigpa.*
*I'm not a veteran :tongue:
no, you're not a veteran :rolling:
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Pero
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero »

Sönam wrote: Dzogchen is rigpa.
When not rigpa, it's not Dzogchen.
Ngondrö, creation and completion, tantric practices and so on
are not rigpa, they are not Dzogchen.
They cannot lead to rigpa,
They cannot not lead to Dzogchen.
When not rigpa, then sem.
So Sonam, what do you think "leads" to rigpa?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Mariusz
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Mariusz »

Sönam wrote:
no, you're not a veteran :rolling:
:rolleye: :smile:
although I have my notes what "my" rinpoche said too, during our meeting: Alaya supports from life to life, but it is the support of the Dzogchen (Nyinthig) Path ("the automatic Ground of the linking-up", I don't know tibetan what the original dzogchen term for it), not only as deluded ground.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Sönam »

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote: Dzogchen is rigpa.
When not rigpa, it's not Dzogchen.
Ngondrö, creation and completion, tantric practices and so on
are not rigpa, they are not Dzogchen.
They cannot lead to rigpa,
They cannot not lead to Dzogchen.
When not rigpa, then sem.
So Sonam, what do you think "leads" to rigpa?
Nothing leads to rig-pa ... not realizing the essence of the appearances of the base leads to ma-rig-pa.

Being distracted into delusion, into normal conceptual mind, madhyamaka is the first aid ... but of course it does not "leads" to rigpa.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Pero
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero »

Sönam wrote: Nothing leads to rig-pa ...
What is the point of Dzogchen teachings?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by ground »

Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote: Nothing leads to rig-pa ...
What is the point of Dzogchen teachings?
Considering this "discussion" this question seems justified.

Kind regards
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Sönam »

TMingyur wrote:
Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote: Nothing leads to rig-pa ...
What is the point of Dzogchen teachings?
Considering this "discussion" this question seems justified.

Kind regards
not to pollute by any kind of distraction ... gain confidence, therefore stabilize.

or ...
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Pemachöying
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pemachöying »

Sönam please read some biografy of for example the linege holders of Kunjed Gyalpo or
any other early Dzogchenlineage 90% of them had the background of being a Pandita and or had a vision of their Yidam. But if you are such capable vessel of understanding Dzogchen directly please study some basic teaching so you can benifit other beings.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Sönam wrote:
Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote: Nothing leads to rig-pa ...
What is the point of Dzogchen teachings?
not to pollute by any kind of distraction ... gain confidence, therefore stabilize.

or ...
You don't understand the question Sönam, it is a catch 22. If you can't use your mind to find out about about rigpa, you can't find out about rigpa. You only have mind (sem) because you are lost in samsara in the first place. Direct introduction is not possible, because you can't rely on mind how can you even meet a teacher. Like I said before you don't understand the difference between sem and rigpa. No offense, this is quite difficult.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Heruka »

heart wrote: Like I said before you don't understand the difference between sem and rigpa. No offense, this is quite difficult.

/magnus
we have plenty of time, no one is in a rush, it would be good for many if you could at least try and articulate what you know into words.

i would like to read the difference between the two.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Heruka »

or maybe its more like normal way of playing the man and not the ball?

i did occur to me that this is quite ordinary.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

muni wrote: The Grandson: "Great Perfection is realized by Devotion only". Is this contradicting Yidam in anyway?
There's definitely no contradiction.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

TMingyur wrote:
Pero wrote:
Sönam wrote: Nothing leads to rig-pa ...
What is the point of Dzogchen teachings?
Considering this "discussion" this question seems justified.

Kind regards
TMingyur,

If one were to judge the usefulness and value of any topic based on a few ordinary people's prattling on about it on the internet, that would be quite foolish indeed, and one would be lead to believe everything, mundane and spiritual, was pointless. In this case, to disparage something as precious as the Dzogchen teachings is not only foolish but extremely negative karmically.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Heruka wrote:
heart wrote: Like I said before you don't understand the difference between sem and rigpa. No offense, this is quite difficult.

/magnus
we have plenty of time, no one is in a rush, it would be good for many if you could at least try and articulate what you know into words.

i would like to read the difference between the two.
I and others already tried to do that in this thread already many times. I don't know what to add.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Heruka wrote:or maybe its more like normal way of playing the man and not the ball?

i did occur to me that this is quite ordinary.
Not at all my intention to be ordinary, so no I am not. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Heruka wrote:
heart wrote: Like I said before you don't understand the difference between sem and rigpa. No offense, this is quite difficult.

/magnus
we have plenty of time, no one is in a rush, it would be good for many if you could at least try and articulate what you know into words.

i would like to read the difference between the two.
Honestly, Heruka, this is something one has to do the rushen thoroughly for, especially the "jung ne dro sum," to discover for oneself. One has to look into one's own mind and see what's there and how it is. Telling someone how it is is about as effective as telling someone who's never had sugar how it tastes. It will put some concepts into his head, but he won't be any closer to knowing for himself how it actually tastes.
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by muni »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Also, when you speak of looking to awareness itself, then speak of looking away from awareness and going astray, you imply the latter is what's going on when one practices a yidam. I have to ask you how one could be considered to be properly practicing a yidam while connecting to the manifestation of the body and voice but not the wisdom mind? That's certainly not the instruction. And if one is following the instruction for vajra mind, recognizing all mental activity for what it is, the Dharmakaya, then how can whatever arises in one's mind escape self-liberation if there is knowledge of rigpa?


Awareness is liberated immediately by itself. No Yidam but not to run astray is here the method. To add technics, concepts is no help. blowing air into air is an expression in trying to "express". I putted in messy style two different "methods" together in one post, but this is the one I seems to recognize in Sönam-words. Of course I can be wrong, he can tell it me.
Last edited by muni on Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mariusz
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Mariusz »

muni wrote: Awareness is liberated immediately by itself. No Yidam but not to run astray is here the method. To add technics, concepts is no help. blowing air into air is an expression in trying to "express". I putted in messy style two different "methods" together in one post, but this is the one I seems to recognize in Sönam-words. Of course I can be wrong, he can tell it me.
for me it is not a paradox. It reffers what I wrote about Madhyamaka: "when all reference points no more = unblurred vision". But to taste it directly, only Rushen is the tool, the separation between sem and Rigpa. More to say about it here openly in internet for not "iniciated", could be a violation of one's own samaya. It deals with student-master relation, private. So the "ilussion-like" path is necessary, although Sönam seems to me neglect it.
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