The path with no goal aka nirvana

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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby shel » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:22 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:As for what I think omniscience means, well, it's completely irrelevant coz I am not omniscient so my opinion can be correct or incorrect.


Omniscience means knowing everything.

ORIGIN early 17th cent.: from medieval Latin omniscient- ‘all-knowing,’ based on scire ‘to know.’

So now you know correctly. :cheers:
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby MaitriYNOD » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:41 pm

What I see you hinting at is the Mahayana ideal of the bodhisattva/Buddha, in which those who have realized emptiness and thus no longer suffer continue to manifest in samsara for the purpose of bringing all beings out of suffering. This is a path that most definitely exists within Buddhist traditions. However, within the purview of emptiness, to say the path either ends or it doesn't are both extremes that fail to arrive at the view. Ramon, I politely suggest you present yourself with a less condescending attitude.
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:35 am

shel wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:As for what I think omniscience means, well, it's completely irrelevant coz I am not omniscient so my opinion can be correct or incorrect.


Omniscience means knowing everything.

ORIGIN early 17th cent.: from medieval Latin omniscient- ‘all-knowing,’ based on scire ‘to know.’

So now you know correctly. :cheers:
So now I know a defintion of omniscience, I don't know what it means to be omniscient. I know the definition of God too, does that mean I know God?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby shel » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:09 am

I don't know. Do you know God? :shrug:

And on a side note, I wouldn't feel bad about not knowing everything. I'm sure knowing everything is overrated.
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby oushi » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:14 pm

To clarify in what sense is Buddha omniscient (From The Perfection of Wisdom):

The Lord: So it is, Subhuti. It is thus that the perfection of wisdom
instructs the Tathagatas in this world. To the extent that the Tathagatas dwell in
intimate dependence on this dharma, the perfection of wisdom, to that extent are
those dharmas, which stand out for ever, fully known by the Tathagatas, through
their taking their stand nowhere. Thereby they dwell in close and intimate
dependence on just the Dharma. They treat the Dharma with respect, revere,
worship and adore it, for they know that this essential nature of dharmas is just
the perfection of wisdom. For the all-knowledge of the Tathagatas has been
brought about from this perfection of wisdom, and for that the Tathagatas are
grateful and thankful to her.
With justice can the Tathagata be called ‘grateful
and thankful’ [kritajna kritavedin]. In gratitude and thankfulness the Tathagata
favours and cherishes the vehicle on which he has come, and the path by
which he has won full enlightenment. That one should know as the gratitude and
thankfulness of the Tathagata. In addition, the Tathagata has fully known all
dharmas as not made
[akrita], as not unmade, as not brought together. This also
one should know as the gratitude and thankfulness of the Tathagata. For it is
thanks to the perfection of wisdom that the cognition of the Tathagata has thus
proceeded in all dharmas. That is another aspect of the fact that perfect wisdom
instructs the Tathagatas in this world.


So, there is omniscience, but this is all-knowledge of the emptiness of dharmas, not the knowledge about the dharmas. Why? Because "all dharmas are unthinkable, incomparable,immeasurable, incalculable, equal to the unequalled."

Subhuti: But how can perfect wisdom instruct the Tathagata in this world
if all dharmas are unknowable and imperceptible?
The Lord: It is good, Subhuti, that you should have decided to question
the Tathagata about this matter. All dharmas are indeed unknowable and
imperceptible. Because they are empty, and do not lean on anything. It is thus
that all those dharmas have, thanks to perfect wisdom, been fully known by theTathagatas.


Buddha does not know everything, he knows that everything is unknowable, as everything is empty. This is wisdom, while view-based knowledge is nothing but ignorance.
And now straight to the goal of the path:

Subhuti: How can there be a non-viewing of form, etc.?
The Lord: Where there arises an act of consciousness which has none of
the skandhas for objective support, there the non-viewing of form, etc., takes
place. But just this non-viewing of the skandhas is the viewing of the world. That
is the way in which the world is viewed by that Tathagata. It is thus that perfect
wisdom acts as an instructress in the world to the Tathagatas. And how does
perfect wisdom show up the world for what it is? She shows that the world is
empty, unthinkable, calmly quiet.
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby shel » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:36 pm

So no mention of jet planes in the sutras? :tongue:
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:05 am

Apparently ;)
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:16 am

shel wrote:So no mention of jet planes in the sutras? :tongue:
Guru Padmasambhava mentioned jet planes in his prediction of the Tibetan diaspora. He referred to them as flying iron birds.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby yegyal » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:51 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:So no mention of jet planes in the sutras? :tongue:
Guru Padmasambhava mentioned jet planes in his prediction of the Tibetan diaspora. He referred to them as flying iron birds.


What makes you so sure about that? Have you ever seen the source of this quote? If you did, can you read Tibetan? If I were to try and recreate the Tibetan for that quote, I would venture that it's referring to the iron bird year. As for the "land of the red faced ones," this is a common way of referring to Tibet. Though I can't be sure because I've never been able to find this in Tibetan nor do I know anybody that has.
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:07 am

yegyal wrote:What makes you so sure about that? Have you ever seen the source of this quote? If you did, can you read Tibetan? If I were to try and recreate the Tibetan for that quote, I would venture that it's referring to the iron bird year. As for the "land of the red faced ones," this is a common way of referring to Tibet. Though I can't be sure because I've never been able to find this in Tibetan nor do I know anybody that has.
So you are sure that he did not say it? I mean, you seem pretty sure.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby yegyal » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:50 am

I'm sure that I have never seen the original quote in Tibetan, which is pretty amazing considering how often it is quoted in English. I'm sure that the phrase "the land of the red faced" (gdong dmar can gyi yul) is a stock phrase used to refer to Tibet, so I highly doubt it is a reference to native Americans. I'm sure that if I came across the compound "iron-bird" (lcags bya) in a Tibetan text I would automatically recognize it as a year, the last one was 1981 btw. Am I sure that there doesn't exist a prophecy somewhere that says something that was perhaps mistranslated and misinterpreted and is the source of this? No, of course not. I'd love to see the Tibetan for this and so would all the other people that have spent their time searching for it in vain. But the burden of proof shouldn't have to be on me. You quoted something and I asked for your source. If you don't have one, you could have just said that in the first place.
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:17 am

No I don't have a source (apart from the one thrown around by everybody, everywhere). Interesting. And the bit in the prophecy about horses running on wheels? How do you explain that one?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby jeeprs » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:37 pm

That is the first time I've heard of flying iron horse. (Thinking of Shrek.) Last time I heard it, it was 'iron horse', i.e. 'railway'. But I read a discussion of that alleged prophecy - quite possibly on this site - and I think the story is apocryphal.
He that knows it, knows it not.
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:49 pm

jeeprs wrote:That is the first time I've heard of flying iron horse...
Iron bird jeepers, iron bird! Horses on wheels. You really got to learn to pay attenton to what you are reading!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby yegyal » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:11 pm

Again, I would need to see the Tibetan to what they are translating as "horses run on wheel," though it really doesn't sound like something you would write in Tibetan. Besides it's not like they don't have a word for wagon or horse cart, which is shing rta ,i,e, wooden horse, so iron horse would make more sense. However, the most suspect thing about this quote is that we can make sense of it at all. Usually prophetic statements are highly obscure and poetic, often completely indecipherable and rarely translatable into anything that makes much sense without being decoded. Of course, if anybody knows where to find this quote, by all means let us know, as I'd happy to be proven wrong about this.
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby yegyal » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:24 pm

Here's the discussion Jeeprs was talking about.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=8941&start=0&hilit=iron+bird

:focus:
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby Jikan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:45 pm

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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:21 pm

yegyal wrote:Usually prophetic statements are highly obscure and poetic, often completely indecipherable and rarely translatable into anything that makes much sense without being decoded.
If it was wrtiten in the 8th Century by Padmasambhava then I am sure that for at least 12 centuries the concept of a flying iron bird would have been completely indecipherable (and that it would have only been interpreted as meaning the year of the iron bird), it is only from the 20th century onwards that it makes any "sense".
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby undefineable » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:08 pm

.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: The path with no goal aka nirvana

Postby shel » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:11 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:So no mention of jet planes in the sutras? :tongue:
Guru Padmasambhava mentioned jet planes in his prediction of the Tibetan diaspora. He referred to them as flying iron birds.


Lol, an iron bird is not a jet plane. Iron birds haven't been invented yet, though some day they might be, as perhaps some kind of artistic work.

The propulsion system for an iron bird conceived centuries ago would be wing flapping, not turbofans burning refined fossil fuels. Also, describing a jet plane as made of iron shows a fundamental misconception or lack of knowledge about artificial flight and engineering. Iron is too heavy and weak a material for jet planes. Jet planes are made of titanium, aluminum, and carbon composites.

The ideas of bird and iron would be easy to combine in centuries past, but this hardly constitutes any sort of prediction.
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