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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:38 pm 
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What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood.

Sönam

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood.

Sönam

Interesting. Aren't the Four Noble Truths the first thing Buddha taught his buddies after being enlightened?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:59 pm 
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rachmiel wrote:
Sönam wrote:
What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood.

Sönam

Interesting. Aren't the Four Noble Truths the first thing Buddha taught his buddies after being enlightened?


absolutely ... it is a direct teaching!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:31 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Not all traditions use the 8-fold path, the 4th Noble Truth. Not all traditions use the 5 precepts or 3 jewels.
The question was: which Buddhist tradition does not have the 4 Noble truths? Your statement does not answer my question. So let me ask which Buddhist traditions do not "use" the Four Noble Truths?


I spent many years in Tibetan and Zen traditions and can't remember the 4NT even being mentioned, let alone identified as a key teaching. And I don't think they recieve any attention in traditions like Nichiren and Pureland. In fact Theravada is the only tradition I know of where the 4NT are regarded as a central teaching, or where the 8-fold path is practiced.

I'd agree with the idea that the 4NT are implicit in most traditions, but that's rather different from saying that they're a central common feature.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself.


So are you saying we can disregard everything else that is taught in all the various Buddhist traditions?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:12 pm 
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I spent many years in Tibetan and Zen traditions and can't remember the 4NT even being mentioned


Seriously? I haven't attended a longer teaching from a Tibetan master without them being mentioned- and that is across three of the Tibetan traditions. Perhaps I will be corrected in this, but the 4NT are still essential in the direct meditation traditions like Dzogchen ( Khenpos on 4NT in Dzogchen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPDEqjeAG9o) And certainly, in the presentation of HHDL and HH Karmapa, the 4 Arya Truths form the crux of any introductory teaching.

How else do we understand suffering, its cause, the possibility of freedom, and the path to freedom?
The Buddhist teachings themselves arose out of a profound wish to provide a path of freedom from suffering.

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I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:17 pm 
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porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:
What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself.


So are you saying we can disregard everything else that is taught in all the various Buddhist traditions?


I did'nt said "diregard", you just cut an important part of it.
My complete sentence was "What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood."

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:18 pm 
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A fantastic series of teachings on the 4NT by HHDL

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:19 pm 
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JKhedrup wrote:
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I spent many years in Tibetan and Zen traditions and can't remember the 4NT even being mentioned


Seriously?


Yes, seriously. Admittedly it was a quite a long time ago, and if there were passing references I might have forgotten them.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:21 pm 
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JKhedrup wrote:
Perhaps I will be corrected in this, but the 4NT are still essential in the direct meditation traditions like Dzogchen ...


You are of course perfectly right ... the point in Dzogchen is that the ignorance principe of twelve interdependent causations is described as "apprehending appearances as others, not realizing them as self-radiance" (Ma-Rig-Pa).

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:48 am 
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Sönam wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:
What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself.


So are you saying we can disregard everything else that is taught in all the various Buddhist traditions?


I did'nt said "diregard", you just cut an important part of it.
My complete sentence was "What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood."


I'm still not clear what you mean by "secondary" and "complementary". Are you saying that the teachings and practices of all traditions are basically just methods to realise the 4NTs?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:31 am 
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porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:

I did'nt said "diregard", you just cut an important part of it.
My complete sentence was "What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood."


I'm still not clear what you mean by "secondary" and "complementary". Are you saying that the teachings and practices of all traditions are basically just methods to realise the 4NTs?


Yes ... what else are you expecting?

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:32 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:

I did'nt said "diregard", you just cut an important part of it.
My complete sentence was "What ever tradition one practice, the teaching about the 4 NT is enough, in itself. Other teachings are secondary (complementary) because one has not be able to realize it . What ever tradition practiced, if one realizes the sense of this teaching, one immediately realizes the sense of Buddhadharma, one realizes Buddhahood."


I'm still not clear what you mean by "secondary" and "complementary". Are you saying that the teachings and practices of all traditions are basically just methods to realise the 4NTs?


Yes ... what else are you expecting?

Sönam


It's news to me. What you say does make sense, but like I said I don't remember that being made atall clear while I was actually involved in Tibetan Buddhism, and I've always associated the 4NT primarily with Theravada Buddism. Anyway, I stand corrected.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:49 pm 
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porpoise wrote:
And I don't think they recieve any attention in traditions like Nichiren and Pureland.


Can't speak for Nichiren, but liberation from the Dukkha of Samsara is the whole point of Pure Land and Sukhavati (dukkha and sukha being antonyms). This would be impossible without the 4NTs.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:57 pm 
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rachmiel wrote:
Dependent Origination
Eightfold Path
Five Precepts
Five Skandhas
Four Dharma Seals
Four Noble Truths
Karma
The Three Universal Seals
Three Jewels
Threefold training of Precepts, Meditation and Wisdom
Twelve Links of Dependent Origination


A few more:

12 ayatanas & 18 dhatus
5/6 realms
37 factors of enlightenment
liberation as arhat, pratyekabuddha, buddha

Basically you can take everything that were taught in the Vinaya and Agama/Nikaya as common teachings. The first strong differences occurred with the various abhidharma works and then other developments like the Bodhisattva/Vaipulya Pitaka, etc.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
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"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:39 am 
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Sönam wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:
Perhaps I will be corrected in this, but the 4NT are still essential in the direct meditation traditions like Dzogchen ...


You are of course perfectly right ... the point in Dzogchen is that the ignorance principe of twelve interdependent causations is described as "apprehending appearances as others, not realizing them as self-radiance" (Ma-Rig-Pa).

Sönam

:good:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:34 pm 
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I have a rather limited knowledge on the different buddhist practicions, but for me the most important and central aspects are the four noble truths, the noble eight-fold path, and some concepts revolving around meditation, mindfulness, awareness, love, energies, presence (being NOW) and reflection. And ofcourse, liberation from the clasps of the ego.

But as Seishin wisely said, we each have our own path, with our own truths. I Strongly believe that we always decide and are responisble for our reality, and thus we can only progress and achieve as much as we truly believe we can.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:44 am 
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Have we reached an agreement/conclusion on this topic yet. Slightly off topic, but regarding the 5 precepts, has anyone read the 14 precepts taught by Thich nhat hanh.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:24 am 
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What are the commonalities among *all* Buddhist traditions?
I.e. what assertions/conclusions would virtually any Buddhist of any school/lineage/nationality agree on?
Well, on another note, the more grounded answer would be: all would love more sponsors & free labor... in a gist...

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