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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:11 am 
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Sönam wrote:
Once Buddha Shakyamuni realized unlightenment he gave a direct introduction, an ultimate teaching ... After which he turned two more times the Dharma Wheel ... who lead to the different Mahayana paths.


I'm still not following your logic, Sonam. If the 4NT are "direct" and "ultimate" teaching, what need was there for the Dharma Wheel to be turned again? Why the need for all the Buddhist schools with their different assumptions and methodologies?


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:37 am 
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To make it very simple and clear up some of the problems in this thread.
There are two obscurations: emotional obscurations and obscurations to that which can be known. And shravaka works to overcome the emotional obscurations through the understanding and application of the FOUR TRUTHS OF THE NOBLE ONE and so forth and thus is liberated from suffering and becomes an arhat. A bodhisattva works to overcome both obscurations through the practice of the six paramitas and thus is liberated from both suffering and the obstacles to omniscience and thus becomes a buddha.

As for the earlier quote from Astus, the 1st, 2nd, and 4th Truths are classified as relative truth and the 3rd, the Truth of Cessation of Suffering, is considered to be ultimate truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:47 am 
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porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Once Buddha Shakyamuni realized unlightenment he gave a direct introduction, an ultimate teaching ... After which he turned two more times the Dharma Wheel ... who lead to the different Mahayana paths.


I'm still not following your logic, Sonam. If the 4NT are "direct" and "ultimate" teaching, what need was there for the Dharma Wheel to be turned again? Why the need for all the Buddhist schools with their different assumptions and methodologies?
Different strokes for different folks. While I admit that it is true that the 4NT includes the 8NP as the method, it would be hard to prove that the Buddha would exclude any method or assumption that allowed for the development of Right effort, Right mindfulness and Right concentration.
As for the assumptions:

"And what is right view? Knowledge with reference to suffering, knowledge with reference to the origination of suffering, knowledge with reference to the cessation of suffering, knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering: This is called right view."

Again, if the assumption fits into this defintion why deny, or doubt, its legitimacy?

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:03 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Once Buddha Shakyamuni realized unlightenment he gave a direct introduction, an ultimate teaching ... After which he turned two more times the Dharma Wheel ... who lead to the different Mahayana paths.


I'm still not following your logic, Sonam. If the 4NT are "direct" and "ultimate" teaching, what need was there for the Dharma Wheel to be turned again? Why the need for all the Buddhist schools with their different assumptions and methodologies?
Different strokes for different folks. While I admit that it is true that the 4NT includes the 8NP as the method, it would be hard to prove that the Buddha would exclude any method or assumption that allowed for the development of Right effort, Right mindfulness and Right concentration.
As for the assumptions:

"And what is right view? Knowledge with reference to suffering, knowledge with reference to the origination of suffering, knowledge with reference to the cessation of suffering, knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering: This is called right view."

Again, if the assumption fits into this defintion why deny, or doubt, its legitimacy?


I'm not questioning legitimacy, I'm trying to follow Sonam's logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:25 pm 
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porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Once Buddha Shakyamuni realized unlightenment he gave a direct introduction, an ultimate teaching ... After which he turned two more times the Dharma Wheel ... who lead to the different Mahayana paths.


I'm still not following your logic, Sonam. If the 4NT are "direct" and "ultimate" teaching, what need was there for the Dharma Wheel to be turned again? Why the need for all the Buddhist schools with their different assumptions and methodologies?


Like all direct introduction, if the student don't get it at first, then he has to follow secondary teachings. And because of the 84,000 different sorts of beings, after the 8 fold path he turned two others times the Wheel for other kind of students.

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Once Buddha Shakyamuni realized unlightenment he gave a direct introduction, an ultimate teaching ... After which he turned two more times the Dharma Wheel ... who lead to the different Mahayana paths.


I'm still not following your logic, Sonam. If the 4NT are "direct" and "ultimate" teaching, what need was there for the Dharma Wheel to be turned again? Why the need for all the Buddhist schools with their different assumptions and methodologies?


Like all direct introduction, if the student don't get it at first, then he has to follow secondary teachings. And because of the 84,000 different sorts of beings, after the 8 fold path he turned two others times the Wheel for other kind of students.

Sönam


Why do you use the oddball term, "unlightenment"?

Let me add my two cents by saying that there is nothing that remarkable about the 4NTs. The 4NT even need unpacking which puts them into the general category of neyartha. What is remarkable is what the Buddha actually says suffering is, it is the five skandhas. We cannot escape suffering by identifying with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:08 am 
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Sönam wrote:
I am surprized that one can doubt about the 4 NT being the absolute teaching of the Buddha. 4 NT is the dharma. This very first teaching of Buddha Shakyamuni is the one of the Perfect, it's a direct introduction teaching, it gives all what is necessary to realize Liberation, buddhahood.
All other teachings are only to comment, explain, lead to the realization of 4 NT. All yanas, schools, traditons, in all their complexities have only one goal, to realize the 4 NT.
If one only contemplate this teaching, all along one life, certainly one will realize buddhahood.

Sönam


What does it give? Please elaborate. . .


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:15 am 
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The 4 noble truths are not to soemthing to be understood, they are a truth to be realised.

Secondly, the cessation of suffering occurs a long time after the taming of the mind. Your cosncience does not immediately recollect it's infinite potential... hmmm :techproblem:


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:59 am 
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Sönam wrote:
porpoise wrote:
I'm still not following your logic, Sonam. If the 4NT are "direct" and "ultimate" teaching, what need was there for the Dharma Wheel to be turned again? Why the need for all the Buddhist schools with their different assumptions and methodologies?


Like all direct introduction, if the student don't get it at first, then he has to follow secondary teachings. And because of the 84,000 different sorts of beings, after the 8 fold path he turned two others times the Wheel for other kind of students.


So are you saying the 8-fold path is inadequate or unsuitable for many? That seems to be the logic of your argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:02 am 
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Koji wrote:
Let me add my two cents by saying that there is nothing that remarkable about the 4NTs. What is remarkable is what the Buddha actually says suffering is, it is the five skandhas.


Don't forget that "suffering is the aggregates subject to grasping" is included in the First Noble Truth. That's where it comes from.


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:09 am 
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porpoise wrote:
Sönam wrote:
porpoise wrote:
I'm still not following your logic, Sonam. If the 4NT are "direct" and "ultimate" teaching, what need was there for the Dharma Wheel to be turned again? Why the need for all the Buddhist schools with their different assumptions and methodologies?


Like all direct introduction, if the student don't get it at first, then he has to follow secondary teachings. And because of the 84,000 different sorts of beings, after the 8 fold path he turned two others times the Wheel for other kind of students.


So are you saying the 8-fold path is inadequate or unsuitable for many? That seems to be the logic of your argument.


no, I did'nt say so ...

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Absolute teaching
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Koji wrote:
And just exactly what is suffering?

Quote:
"And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the five aggregates subject to clinging" SN 56:13.


The implications of this are eye-popping. :shock:


Bang!! Most condensed, dense and pure explanation of the noble truth of suffering i've ever read!


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