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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Does anyone know of any other translations into English of these two texts from the original source text?

THE TIBETAN BOOK OF THE GREAT LIBERATION or The Method of Realizing Nirvana through Knowing the Mind attributed to Guru Padmasambhava, translated by W.Y.Evans-Wentz.

and

SELF-LIBERATION THROUGH SEEING WITH NAKED AWARENESS
"The Profound Teaching of Self-Liberation in the Primordial State of the Peaceful and Wrathful Deities,"
A Terma Text of Guru Padmasambhava expounding the View of Dzogchen, and Rediscovered by Rigdzin Karma Lingpa (14th cent); Translated by John Myrdhin Reynolds,


Does anyone know of the original source that these books claimed to be translated from?


It's written that Padmasambhava (Guru Rinpoche) arrived in Tibet during the 8th century and introduced Buddhism to Tibet. It's taught that he hid a number of religious treasures (termas) to be later found and interpreted. It appears that because of this tradition there are continually new books :quoteunquote: 'found' that are published and claimed to be written by Guru Rinpoche.


There are many other such terma texts that are attributed to be his writing:
"The Tibetan Book of the Dead" (Bardo Thodol)
"The Gradual Path of the Wisdom Essence"
"The Garland of Views: An Instruction" However, I've read other Rinpoches teach that he only wrote this single text!! :shrug:


Francesca Fremantle the scholar and translator wrote that:
Quote:
..there is in fact no single Tibetan title corresponding to the Tibetan Book of the Dead. The overall name given to the whole terma cycle is Profound Dharma of Self-Liberation through the Intention of the Peaceful and Wrathful Ones, and it is popularly known as Karma Lingpa's Peaceful and Wrathful Ones. It has been handed down through the centuries in several versions containing varying numbers of sections and subsections, arranged in different orders, ranging from around ten to thirty-eight titles. These individual texts cover a wide range of subjects,


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:07 pm 
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Yes, and what is your point? In the Nyingma school there are to streams of teachings, called kama and terma. You should read a little about that.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:19 pm 
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If you are interested in a scholarly perspective on Padmasambhava, Robert Meyer has an excellent series on his blog.

The one text that scholars and practitioners agree on attributing to Guru Padmasambhava without much controversy is the Garland of Views.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Thank you for your reply, I am familiar with kama and terma. My point is seeking answers to my questions of the post: is anyone is aware of any other translations, and what is the original source text for these two English books?

THE TIBETAN BOOK OF THE GREAT LIBERATION translated by W.Y.Evans-Wentz.

and

SELF-LIBERATION THROUGH SEEING WITH NAKED AWARENESS Translated by John Myrdhin Reynolds,

heart wrote:
Yes, and what is your point? In the Nyingma school there are to streams of teachings, called kama and terma. You should read a little about that.

/magnus


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:54 pm 
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I thought they are both translations of the same text? Anyway, both are from Karling shitro. An alternative translation is here: http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=14818


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:43 pm 
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dimeo wrote:
Thank you for your reply, I am familiar with kama and terma. My point is seeking answers to my questions of the post: is anyone is aware of any other translations, and what is the original source text for these two English books?

THE TIBETAN BOOK OF THE GREAT LIBERATION translated by W.Y.Evans-Wentz.

and

SELF-LIBERATION THROUGH SEEING WITH NAKED AWARENESS Translated by John Myrdhin Reynolds,



The same text:

ripg-pa ngo-sprod gcer-mthong rang-grol

http://vajranatha.com/books/self-liberation.html

The Tibetan Book of the Dead, or Kar-gling zhi-khro, discovered by Karma Lingpa in Southern Tibet in the 14th century, was one of the most important cycle of texts to come out of the Dzogchen tradition of Tibet established in ancient times by Guru Padmasambhava among both the Nyingmapa Buddhists and the Bonpos. "Self-Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness" (Rig-pa ngo-sprod gcer-mthong rang-grol) is the central meditation text of this famous Tibetan Book of the Dead cycle and is said to have been composed by Padmasambhava himself. It is usually known in the West as The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation, the title given to it by W.Y. Evans-Wentz (1954). This profound text presents the instructions for the method of Self-Liberation (rang-grol) that represent the very essence of Dzogchen, "the Great Perfection," which is traditionally regarded in Tibet as the highest and most esoteric teaching of the Buddha. Directly introducing the practitioner of meditation to the Natural State of the Nature of Mind (sems-nyid gnas-lugs), which is the contemplative state of pure awareness or Rigpa lying beyond the mind and its mundane operations that constitute Samsara, this quintessential teaching of the great master Guru Padmasambhava opens up the possibility to the individual of the realization of freedom and enlightenment within a single life time.

There's another translation of this text in Gyurme Dorje's recent version of the complete 'Great Liberation by Hearing in the Intermediate States'

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:59 pm 
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The source is the Karling Shitro, also called the Shitro Gonpa Rangdrol http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... a_Rangdrol

A more comprehensive translation can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Book-Dead ... f+the+dead

/magnus


dimeo wrote:
Thank you for your reply, I am familiar with kama and terma. My point is seeking answers to my questions of the post: is anyone is aware of any other translations, and what is the original source text for these two English books?

THE TIBETAN BOOK OF THE GREAT LIBERATION translated by W.Y.Evans-Wentz.

and

SELF-LIBERATION THROUGH SEEING WITH NAKED AWARENESS Translated by John Myrdhin Reynolds,

heart wrote:
Yes, and what is your point? In the Nyingma school there are to streams of teachings, called kama and terma. You should read a little about that.

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:14 pm 
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The source is indeed KarLing Shitro, which is a terma revealed by Karma Lingpa, and which contains many practices, texts, instructions, etc. These translations are only a part of the whole thing. Gyaltrul Rinpoche's "Natural Liberation" is a commentary given based on the root texts, and it's been linked to here, as well.

In a sense, wouldn't we say that most of (all of?) the Terma Sadhanas, Instructions, Men Ngak, etc., discovered in Tibet were "written by Guru Rinpoche?" Sure, many will say they were based on original Indian or other texts....but if one looks, for example, at Jomgon Kongtrul's writings, a large perecentage of his "collected works" are sadhanas and "tri" manuals based on earlier sadhanas, tantras, Men Ngak (Pith Instructions).....

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:21 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
The source is indeed KarLing Shitro, which is a terma revealed by Karma Lingpa, and which contains many practices, texts, instructions, etc. These translations are only a part of the whole thing. Gyaltrul Rinpoche's "Natural Liberation" is a commentary given based on the root texts, and it's been linked to here, as well.

In a sense, wouldn't we say that most of (all of?) the Terma Sadhanas, Instructions, Men Ngak, etc., discovered in Tibet were "written by Guru Rinpoche?" Sure, many will say they were based on original Indian or other texts....but if one looks, for example, at Jomgon Kongtrul's writings, a large perecentage of his "collected works" are sadhanas and "tri" manuals based on earlier sadhanas, tantras, Men Ngak (Pith Instructions).....
Sometimes they were composed by someone else but were learned and taught by Padmasambhava (such as the Drikungpa Phowa). Regardless I believe all Terma have Padamsambhava as the origin in some way.

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"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:38 am 
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Thanks everyone for the knowledgeable responses! It makes so much sense now, as at first
I was rather confused by the obvious differences between the texts, and different titles.

It makes much more sense now that I see how John M. Reynolds translation is an excerpt of the larger Bardo Thodol text.

I read that it is part of a larger cycle of texts of the “heart essence” (nying thig) tradition.

Any comments on what a 'cycle of texts' is. Is this referring to how the excerpts are often taught as part of the larger set?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:29 pm 
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When we're talking about a "Cycle," normally it's a bunch of discrete texts that are related in some way, and are usually revealed together, by on Terton.

So, for example, when we're talking about the KarLing Shitro cycle, the best known text is the "Bardo Thodol," or "Tibetan Book of the Dead," which is specifically a manual to be read to a dying person.

There is also an empowerment text.

There are also sadhana texts, including a Mandala practice where one visualizes oneself as the mandala of the peaceful and wrathful deities. And there are texts that provide instruction in the completion stage yogas. There are texts specifically for offering to the protectors, etc.

Another example of a cycle would be Sangye Lingpa's "Lama Gongdu," which has thirteen volumes, contains a number of sadhanas, rituals, and explanatory texts for the stages of creation and completion, from Ngondro, all the way to Ati practices, Trekcho, Togal, etc.

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