Wrathful deities

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Wrathful deities

Postby shaunc » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:26 pm

The other day I took my family out to the local Thai temple for the morning Dana offering. As usual my wife spent most of the visit in the kitchen preparing food & chatting with the other women. While the main temple area was still quiet I took the kids into look at the statues Liam's (9 yrs) favourite was a fierce looking warrior type with a sword, definitely not one of my favourites, Kathleen's (4 yrs) was a skeleton Kept in a glass case. I was relating this to friend of mine & he stated, quite rightly I believe, that this is the reason for 84,000 teachings. Different methods/teachings appeal to different people. He then said that the reason for the wrathfully deitie was because sometimes some practitioners need a kick up the bum. I don't know if this is true or not & it really doesn't matter, but at the time it was good advice for me. I suppose in some ways people are like racehorses, some respond well to being nursed along ridden hands & heels & others go better under the whip. Also I've noticed that they all look good when they're getting their own way out in front but you really need to see them caught wide, without cover & a fair bit of weight on their back to see how good they really are.
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Ayu » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:15 pm

Once a week i have Achala-day for to collect his mantra.

image.jpg
image.jpg (282.38 KiB) Viewed 1634 times


The meditation wipes out all hindrances end ends up in clear emptyness. When i recite the mantra, i don't feel this energy is opposing but calming. I feel like being protected and this makes my mind feel light and free and calm.
A good thing. :smile:
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Ramon1920 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:29 pm

Wrathful deities is a wide subject, they serve a lot of purposes in different ways.

You should be skeptical of dharmapala practices when they don't have a good source.

Right now I know there are some ethnic Chinese Malaysians trying to spread a black magic ghost to Thai's saying it's a Vajrayana enlightened deity and a lot of Thai's who don't know better are worshiping it.

There are a lot of weird cults that think they'll gain power if more people worship their demon and they're willing to pretend it's a Buddhist protector and fool people. So always be skeptical when it comes to supposed protector deities.
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Ayu » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:09 pm

Ramon1920 wrote:Wrathful deities is a wide subject, they serve a lot of purposes in different ways.

You should be skeptical of dharmapala practices when they don't have a good source.

Right now I know there are some ethnic Chinese Malaysians trying to spread a black magic ghost to Thai's saying it's a Vajrayana enlightened deity and a lot of Thai's who don't know better are worshiping it.

There are a lot of weird cults that think they'll gain power if more people worship their demon and they're willing to pretend it's a Buddhist protector and fool people. So always be skeptical when it comes to supposed protector deities.


In any case ist is always good to be careful.

How do you distinguish between your own projected fear and a real black magic cult?
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Ramon1920 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:22 am

Ayu, that question should not be answered categorically because it is too complex.

You could break it into four questions:

How can you tell when paranoia is distorting your perception?
You can tell by inconsistencies. An example of an inconsistency is when you make some mistake it is no big deal, but when others make the same mistake it is a big deal. Buddhist should be experts in detecting inconsistencies because they are the hallmark of a pernicious affliction.

What is black magic?
Black magic is a common term that doesn't need explanation.

What is a cult?
Cult is a common term that doesn't need explanation.

Is a black magic cult simply a cult that practices black magic or does that combination of qualifications, "black magic" and "cult" mean something else when combined?
No, a black magic cult here means a cult that revolves it's activities around black magic. Not all cults that practice black magic are a black magic cult.
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby tingdzin » Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:32 am

To the original poster -- the fierce sword-bearing deities outside of Thai temples are yaaks, from the Indic yaksha. They are in Theravada Buddhism strictly protectors and have no tutelary functions as far as I know.

In older days, skeletons were often kept at wats as reminders of impermanence.
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Adamantine » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:35 am

Ramon1920 wrote:Wrathful deities is a wide subject, they serve a lot of purposes in different ways.

You should be skeptical of dharmapala practices when they don't have a good source.

Right now I know there are some ethnic Chinese Malaysians trying to spread a black magic ghost to Thai's saying it's a Vajrayana enlightened deity and a lot of Thai's who don't know better are worshiping it.

There are a lot of weird cults that think they'll gain power if more people worship their demon and they're willing to pretend it's a Buddhist protector and fool people. So always be skeptical when it comes to supposed protector deities.


The dharmapalas and protectors do have a very good source. There is one in particular that does not have a good source, which you are probably talking about. This does not mean that the others then are also not authentic or beneficial. It is very misguided and misinformed to be spreading that rumor. It would be like saying because one doctor that people trusted was found to not have really attended medical school, and was practicing without a proper license and ended up harming many people: that all doctors therefore didn't go to medical school and don't know what they are doing. In other words, it's pure nonsense.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Ayu » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:25 am

Adamantine wrote:... This does not mean that the others then are also not authentic or beneficial. It is very misguided and misinformed to be spreading that rumor. It would be like saying because one doctor that people trusted was found to not have really attended medical school, and was practicing without a proper license and ended up harming many people: that all doctors therefore didn't go to medical school and don't know what they are doing. In other words, ...

No, sorry, i did not read that.
I understood, that it is possible that there are black magic cults as well - besides of the "good doctors". There was nothing written of "all of the doctors". :smile:
I think, such a thing should be mentioned, if it is an occuring phenomenon.
For me this off-topic was helpful, (because of other themes).
But also i am very sure about the good source of my achala-sadhana, because my teacher is a good person in an excellent lineage.

But it is surprising: why do Thai people worship any diety that seems to be from Vajrayana? I thought they are followers of Theravada over there?
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby lobster » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:41 pm

shaunc wrote: As usual my wife spent most of the visit in the kitchen preparing food & chatting with the other women.


:smile:
as someone who regularly cooks with wrathful deities, :stirthepot:
I always try to ensure they do the stirring from the inside . . .

Once cooked they are delicious. :woohoo:
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:07 pm

But it is surprising: why do Thai people worship any diety that seems to be from Vajrayana? I thought they are followers of Theravada over there?

http://www.dreamstime.com/stock-image-g ... ge21102131
http://www.sacredsiam.com/thailand-temp ... aburi.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/amthomson/6722207909/
http://www.thaiworldview.com/bouddha/animism3.htm
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Adamantine » Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:01 pm

Ayu wrote:
Adamantine wrote:... This does not mean that the others then are also not authentic or beneficial. It is very misguided and misinformed to be spreading that rumor. It would be like saying because one doctor that people trusted was found to not have really attended medical school, and was practicing without a proper license and ended up harming many people: that all doctors therefore didn't go to medical school and don't know what they are doing. In other words, ...

No, sorry, i did not read that.
I understood, that it is possible that there are black magic cults as well - besides of the "good doctors". There was nothing written of "all of the doctors". :smile:
I think, such a thing should be mentioned, if it is an occuring phenomenon.
For me this off-topic was helpful, (because of other themes).
But also i am very sure about the good source of my achala-sadhana, because my teacher is a good person in an excellent lineage.

But it is surprising: why do Thai people worship any diety that seems to be from Vajrayana? I thought they are followers of Theravada over there?



Oh yeah, I must have read fast and misread it originally: it reads fine now, I thought he was saying ALL protector practices don't have a good source. He was just saying be careful, some don't. Totally valid point. So I apologize Ramon! A good reason not to write comments here when you're working overtime without much sleep!

But I am glad there was something useful in there anyway, Ayu :smile:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby tingdzin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:59 am

Official Thai Buddhism is Theravada, but there are also many ethnic Chinese Thais, among whom Guan Yin is very popular, and other gods who are more associated with Chinese traditional religion than Buddhism. Many Hindu deities are also very popular, including the famous Indra statue in the heart of the commercial district in Bangkok (from whom favors are very often requested, and evidently granted) but also Siva and Ganesh, and even Ardhinarisvara. The idea is that while these gods can't help with the quest for nirvana, worldly goods are definitely within their purview.

I was rather surprised, though, when I was picked up by a taxi driver with a photo of the ghost who shall not be named on the dash, without any king or family or Buddha pictures with it. I didn't know it was the Malaysians who are behind spreading that one.
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Konchog1 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:20 am

tingdzin wrote:including the famous Indra statue in the heart of the commercial district in Bangkok (from whom favors are very often requested, and evidently granted)
Any pictures of this statue?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby tingdzin » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:43 am

Actually, I misspoke. The statue is of Brahma, and it can be seen by googling Erawan Brahma.
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby Snovid » Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:47 am

Do you have security guards?

"Many, we have them all. But I do not have any medium entering a trance and connect with them.
In the old days there was a tradition of Bon have spirits entering the medium.

Those medium have also been used as fortune-tellers, but this tradition has been abandoned by the voucher. Tibetan Buddhists took over technique or idea without accepting the spirits and deities of the pantheon voucher. To this day, there are certain Bonpo who use ghosts, but we think it's wrong. Earlier there were spirits that were useful, and there was also much that was harmful. It is difficult to investigate and make a clear distinction. In addition, there were many scammers who pretend that they are true medium, and thus faith in the matter of guards and medium disappeared. We can not say 'you have to stop'
But you can say 'you should not believe. "

And if there is no faith in the guards, then no problems arise". Jongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpocze
http://a.bongaruda.pl/nauczanie/mistrzo ... _Rinpoche/
I am from Poland I use google translator I do not know English
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby tidathep » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:49 am

tingdzin wrote:Actually, I misspoke. The statue is of Brahma, and it can be seen by googling Erawan Brahma.


----
Sawaddee Ka... Tingdzin,

Gold Brahma statue at Erawan shrine, Bangkok : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BzZzuhtyvs

This beautiful Brahma statue is only 5 minutes driving from my house( and private school). Erawan is the name of the elephant..the Brahma's pet. Thai people love this sacred shrine...days/nights people come to worship with flowers/jasmine leis/candles/incenses. If someone won lottery(after praying to the Brahma), he/she would hire Thai classical dancers to dance in front of the Brahma statue. When I was about 10 yrs old, there was a big news in a newspaper about a family...driving near this Brahma shrine..the traffic was so bad that the driver cursed using bad words...later that driver got into a real bad accident..his family told him to come to apologize to the Brahma statue and promised that he would never curse again.

As a young kid...my mom forbade me to curse/use bad words.....well, I drove pass the Brahma statue...may be a million times without accident!!

tidathep......if you go to a Thai temple and see Chinese deities/Indian deities together with Buddhas' statues.....that temple has sponsors from Laos/Cambodian/Chinese/Thai people....
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Re: Wrathful deities

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:19 pm

shaunc you can always ask the name of the deity and check in the internet what it says about those deities history and origin and other information.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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