Emptiness and Nothingness

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Grigoris
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Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Grigoris » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:07 pm

Topic split from here.

invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
What does this mean? :shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby In the bone yard » Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:01 pm

Nihilists?
Why is middle way so bad?

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:06 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
What does this mean? :shrug:


What?

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby Grigoris » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:41 am

invisiblediamond wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
What does this mean? :shrug:


What?
What does "The final analytic is nothingness" mean? I don't understand what you are trying to say with this statement. I am trying to understand your statement. Do you understand what I am saying? What do I need to do to make myself clearer?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

shel
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby shel » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:27 am

Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby Adamantine » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:55 am

shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:



Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".

As Robert Thurman puts it "there's no such thing as nothing".
It's a fantasy.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby shel » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:15 pm

Adamantine wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:



Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".


How does that clarify Gregkavarnos's apparent cluelessness?

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:54 am

shel wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:



Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".


How does that clarify Gregkavarnos's apparent cluelessness?


Shel, he was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness" which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why. If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby shel » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:32 am

Adamantine wrote:Shel, he [gregkavarnos] was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness"

Uh... it wasn't my statement.

... which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why.

Nonsense. Nothing stands on the very same existential footing as something. Perhaps you'd care to be more specific in your existential claims.

If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.

Gregkavarnos only recognizes proper synonyms? Alright, thanks for explaining. :tongue:

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby undefineable » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:45 am

Adamantine wrote:Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".

As Robert Thurman puts it "there's no such thing as nothing".
It's a fantasy.

Johnny Dangerous wrote:Emptiness is actually everything, and has no beginning, end, center etc. it's not nothingness or the opposite of existence.

In my experience, nothingness seems a good label for the fantasy/nightmare projected by ego as a perspective in which to hide -either permanently (c.f. 'desire for non-existence') or temporarily (if 'somethingness' is still the ideal)- when its maintenance becomes problematic. This concept of an impermeable 'fuzziness' that excludes everything -perhaps triggered by the delusion that one is fundamentally conscious of nothing but being conscious- is logicaly opposed to the emptiness that 'permeates' and includes everything: If there are no inherent identities or substances making up 'things', then both the 'things' and their absence are empty and there is therefore no backdrop that might otherwise override the 'things' in an ontological sense. This means there's no ultimate way of distinguishing a 'subjective' from an 'objective'.

This might all be off-topic if not for the confusion typically generated in beginners by the mahayana emphasis on emptiness that's rightly apparent on Dharmawheel. When understood, emptiness brings you down to earth, and -I'm told- this intellectual understanding is merely the beginning _ _
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}

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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby lawrence » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:43 am

It seems reasonable to say that "nothingness is at least a concept.
Emptiness in Buddhist terms on the other hand (right or left your choice) refers to the fact that nothing is existent on it's own , you can't break something down to a final something that is a unique "it". Reality tho is all around us. No?
Gassho
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby kirtu » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:03 am

shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:


Emptiness is not nothingness.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:21 am

Since emptiness describes..well..everything, it's closer to everything than nothing, lol.

IIRC correctly Lankavatara says something like "things are nothing but a concatenation", that does not describe nothingness, only lack of independent existence.
May the eyes of living beings be gladdened by skies made splendid by clouds
that lightnings garland, while on earth below, the peacocks dance with joy as
showers of rain, falling gently, approach.

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby Punya » Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:38 am

shel wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Shel, he [gregkavarnos] was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness"

Uh... it wasn't my statement.

... which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why.

Nonsense. Nothing stands on the very same existential footing as something. Perhaps you'd care to be more specific in your existential claims.

If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.

Gregkavarnos only recognizes proper synonyms? Alright, thanks for explaining. :tongue:


It's curious that we're even having this discussion on a buddhist forum. Greg is not just being pedantic shel, they are simply not synonyms.

Perhaps a read of this thread viewtopic.php?f=39&t=9728 will help (despite its meanderings) although I'm none the wiser as to what is considered to be wrong with Je Tsongkhapa's view of emptiness.
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby shel » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:23 am

kirtu wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:


Emptiness is not nothingness.

Kirt

Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help? :shrug:

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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby kirtu » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:17 pm

shel wrote:
kirtu wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:


Emptiness is not nothingness.

Kirt

Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help? :shrug:


There's a big difference between no-thingness, nothingness and emptiness.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby oushi » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:32 pm

shel wrote:
kirtu wrote:
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical. :tongue:


Emptiness is not nothingness.

Kirt

Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help? :shrug:

That will help a lot.
There is no such thing as nothingness. Nobody ever experienced nothingness. It is a dead word.
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby shel » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:51 pm

kirtu wrote:There's a big difference between no-thingness, nothingness and emptiness.

Kirt

Alright, why don't we try no-[inherent]-thingness. Is that working for you yet? :tongue:

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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:53 pm

I've never liked the term No-thingness because it seemingly implies a lack of things, and emptiness isn't lack or abundance, multiplicity or singularity of stuff, its just the mode of how things are. Then again, the term emptiness seems to get misinterpreted as some sort of nihilistic lack of existence by many non-Buddhists, and perhaps even some Buddhists. So..words fail.
May the eyes of living beings be gladdened by skies made splendid by clouds
that lightnings garland, while on earth below, the peacocks dance with joy as
showers of rain, falling gently, approach.

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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby shel » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:43 pm

Emptiness does mean the lack of an abiding self. Nihilism is about lack of meaning, quite different.


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