Do you really think rebirth is realistic?

[conebeckham]

I don't know. I don't know where "beyond" is. If "beyond" is part of "dualistic 'mind consciousness'" then it isn't somewhere else, is it?

Beyond is perhaps not the best word.....let's say "transcendent," instead.

As an analogy....let's say our "mind" or mental consciousness is like the sky, and our thoughts are like clouds--part of the sky, not really separate from it, but somehow discrete, and changeable. Now, what I'm talking about, as an "object," though it can't really be called an "object"--(see above, eh?)--is neither the empty sky, nor the clouds, nor a combination of both. To continue the analogy, what bears investigation is the "space" which allows for, and somehow permeates, both sky and clouds, but which is neither.....this "space" is an analogy for what I'm trying to get at--a kind of "bare awakeness" which is nondual.

[Individual]

What about Buddhahood, or the Dharmakaya, then?

You will doubtless say they are not "things," .....but what are things? What is mind? A Thought?

It is as inappropriate to say they are "attained," as to say they are "unattainable," or both or neither.

"What are things? What is mind? Thought?"

If I answered, it would be, "Speaking and hearing," and not things, mind, and thought.

As an analogy....let's say our "mind" or mental consciousness is like the sky, and our thoughts are like clouds--part of the sky, not really separate from it, but somehow discrete, and changeable. Now, what I'm talking about, as an "object," though it can't really be called an "object"--(see above, eh?)--is neither the empty sky, nor the clouds, nor a combination of both. To continue the analogy, what bears investigation is the "space" which allows for, and somehow permeates, both sky and clouds, but which is neither.....this "space" is an analogy for what I'm trying to get at--a kind of "bare awakeness" which is nondual.

I see what you're getting at, but any words used to describe it would imply an opposite. Because it is beyond the realm of logic, concepts, thinking, language, being and non-being, it has no opposite; it is unlike anything anyone knows. And any words used to describe it, if understood conceptually, in terms of self (no matter how subtle), is a wrong understanding, which leads to birth and therefore suffering.

[catmoon]

What do you mean by "is"?

[Individual]

OK, Bill Clinton.

[spiritnoname]

I remember before I was born, watching my parents from the bardo. I expect to go through a similar thing when I die this time. It will be like falling asleep, I'll forget who I am, my mind will become without signs like a bird flying though the sky, leaving no trail or sign, and I will find a new body to cling to and tell myself is mine, probably a mind made body first, then wander around to find a suitable family.

[Individual]

I remember before I was born, watching my parents from the bardo. I expect to go through a similar thing when I die this time. It will be like falling asleep, I'll forget who I am, my mind will become without signs like a bird flying though the sky, leaving no trail or sign, and I will find a new body to cling to and tell myself is mine, probably a mind made body first, then wander around to find a suitable family.

Interesting.

How do you know whether this is a valid perception or a daydream\imagination, when the object of thought seems to arise through the same faculty?

Sometimes, I have daydreams like this... For instance, I like taking a warm shower in the dark, and then crawling in bed, still wet, wrapping myself up with the sheets. One day, it occurred to me that I was in fact re-enacting the state of being in the womb.

But perhaps this is just silliness? It's possible!

I could tell you a funny story about a bunch of Wiccans I once knew, who performed a magic ritual to recall their past lives and during the ritual, each person (including me) fabricated a story of a past-life to avoid the embarrassment of making it look like the magic had failed in their case.

[spiritnoname]

(nods)

The one I bother to tell people about is one that checks out with me because what I saw did happen and I can describe people who weren't around after I was born. See,.. not long before I was conceived my immediate family, a aunt and her family were moving from Texas to California. I remember some things that happened on that trip and my aunt's family even though our families parted ways before I was actually born.

So, because my mom and older siblings can verify, I'm convinced it's a real memory.

I have another memory of another family also, I assume I was scouting out. I imagine it's even possible I was born into that family and died really young, but I don't know, I have no way to verify any of that.

Blah blah blah, it's probably very uninteresting to others, but that's my personal proof. I imagine as I continue practicing Dharma I will have even more proof for myself.

[muni]

(nods)

The one I bother to tell people about is one that checks out with me because what I saw did happen and I can describe people who weren't around after I was born. See,.. not long before I was conceived my immediate family, a aunt and her family were moving from Texas to California. I remember some things that happened on that trip and my aunt's family even though our families parted ways before I was actually born.

So, because my mom and older siblings can verify, I'm convinced it's a real memory.

I have another memory of another family also, I assume I was scouting out. I imagine it's even possible I was born into that family and died really young, but I don't know, I have no way to verify any of that.

Blah blah blah, it's probably very uninteresting to others, but that's my personal proof. I imagine as I continue practicing Dharma I will have even more proof for myself.

Thank you for sharing, not very uninteresting. Can be game.