Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

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Re: Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

Postby conebeckham » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:19 pm

Shamati-

Yes, at a certain point. But those sorts of practices are very advanced, and 95% of students will never approach them.
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Re: Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

Postby Shamati » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:35 pm

conebeckham wrote:Shamati-

Yes, at a certain point. But those sorts of practices are very advanced, and 95% of students will never approach them.

Ok. I am theoretically familiar only with taoist alchemy of 3 stages (Wind, Water & Fire) where saving the sexual energy & fluid is very important for the 2nd step. Anyway, I was more used to people interested in this kind of spirituality being more "austere" sexually :)

I know about the "Tibetan Five Rites" but do people within the "Diamond Way", Karma Kagyu normally practice Yoga Asanas? Is there any difference between the Chakra system most common in the west within yoga and that in Tibetan Buddhism?
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Re: Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

Postby conebeckham » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:11 am

the Tibetan "Five Rites" is something someone made up, largely, though it is loosely based on Tibetan asanas to some degree, I think. It's not part of the standard presentation in any genuine Tibetan Buddhist lineage.

Groups of asanas are known as "Trulkhor" in Tibetan, and in the Karma Kagyu they are really a part of the Completion Stage practices of Highest Yoga Tantra. Normally you'd encounter these only in a strict, sealed "three year retreat" in the Karma Kagyu. I don't believe "Diamond Way" teaches them outside of strict retreat either, or perhaps not at all. Other lineages may teach various sets of asanas outside of strict retreat, but most of them are fairly advanced practices, or adjuncts to fairly advanced practices--usually much preperatory or preliminary practice would have to be completed first.

As for Chakras, even in Tibetan systems there are a variety of arrangements of Chakras, etc. These are specific to certain practices.

Again, this is all somewhat advanced practice, in The Kagyu lineage it is the material of a strict retreat, usually.
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Re: Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

Postby Shamati » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:20 am

conebeckham wrote:the Tibetan "Five Rites" is something someone made up, largely, though it is loosely based on Tibetan asanas to some degree, I think. It's not part of the standard presentation in any genuine Tibetan Buddhist lineage.

Groups of asanas are known as "Trulkhor" in Tibetan, and in the Karma Kagyu they are really a part of the Completion Stage practices of Highest Yoga Tantra. Normally you'd encounter these only in a strict, sealed "three year retreat" in the Karma Kagyu. I don't believe "Diamond Way" teaches them outside of strict retreat either, or perhaps not at all. Other lineages may teach various sets of asanas outside of strict retreat, but most of them are fairly advanced practices, or adjuncts to fairly advanced practices--usually much preperatory or preliminary practice would have to be completed first.

As for Chakras, even in Tibetan systems there are a variety of arrangements of Chakras, etc. These are specific to certain practices.

Again, this is all somewhat advanced practice, in The Kagyu lineage it is the material of a strict retreat, usually.

Thank you very much!
What is the reasons for asanas only being taught in strict retreats or only in advanced stages?
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Re: Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

Postby flavio81 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:14 am

Shamati wrote:Hi.

I have no real life experience with Buddhism but have been practicing Yoga (Kundalini) while studying the western esoteric tradition/hermeticism.

But this summer I visited the Benalmadena Stupa in Spain which was built by the "Diamond Way". The impression I got from 2 "public meditations" (translated from Spanish which made it a bit harder to concentrate as effectively etc.) and speaking to the people there is that I feel that there would definitely have been room to study and practice seriously if one would display genuine interest. Overall I got a good feeling of the place.

I found that Lama Ole is a bit controversial in terms of his sex life.
The question I got from this is wether there is any importance laid on abstaining from "orgasm" for keeping the energy within Tibetan Buddhist practice??


Hi Shamati,

Good to know that you've gotten a good impression from that local DW community.

Now, trying to answer your questions:
1. "Is there is any importance laid on abstaining from "orgasm" for keeping the energy within Tibetan Buddhist practice?"

My answer: "Tibetan Buddhist practice" is veeeery wide and spans quite a number of different levels, so there's no concrete answer.

2. "I found that Lama Ole is a bit controversial in terms of his sex life."

You have to consider that
(a) he's Danish, in other words, he comes from a country very different from USA or even most of South America in regards to sexuality
(b) he has no requirement to be celibate or monogamous or abstain from sex with people including his students.

So in that sense, i can't see how could he be controversial in that aspect. He is controversial, but in other aspects. Still, he is supported by the Karma Kagyu lineage (or at least, one side of the Karma Kagyu lineage, because there was a schism).

In any case, for a beginner to Tibetan Buddhism, i think that going to a local DW center can't be a bad thing at all. At least in my city the DW people i've met are serious and dedicated.
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Re: Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

Postby flavio81 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:19 am

Shamati wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Shamati-

Yes, at a certain point. But those sorts of practices are very advanced, and 95% of students will never approach them.

Ok. I am theoretically familiar only with taoist alchemy of 3 stages (Wind, Water & Fire) where saving the sexual energy & fluid is very important for the 2nd step. Anyway, I was more used to people interested in this kind of spirituality being more "austere" sexually :)


I would advise that, before worrying about alchemy, sexual energy, kundalini and so on, better try to educate yourself as most as possible about the fundamentals of Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism as well, because buddhsim is all about destroying (or overcoming) ego in #1, not about trying to develop special powers or abilities via apparently advanced techniques. To do the latter can be cause for more attachment and ego if the foundations and the motivation aren't solid and correct.
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Re: Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

Postby Shamati » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:19 am

flavio81 wrote:Hi Shamati,

Good to know that you've gotten a good impression from that local DW community.

Now, trying to answer your questions:
1. "Is there is any importance laid on abstaining from "orgasm" for keeping the energy within Tibetan Buddhist practice?"

My answer: "Tibetan Buddhist practice" is veeeery wide and spans quite a number of different levels, so there's no concrete answer.

2. "I found that Lama Ole is a bit controversial in terms of his sex life."

You have to consider that
(a) he's Danish, in other words, he comes from a country very different from USA or even most of South America in regards to sexuality
(b) he has no requirement to be celibate or monogamous or abstain from sex with people including his students.

So in that sense, i can't see how could he be controversial in that aspect. He is controversial, but in other aspects. Still, he is supported by the Karma Kagyu lineage (or at least, one side of the Karma Kagyu lineage, because there was a schism).

In any case, for a beginner to Tibetan Buddhism, i think that going to a local DW center can't be a bad thing at all. At least in my city the DW people i've met are serious and dedicated.
Hi, thanks for your answers. I'm swedish so I'm aware that some people in scandinavia may appear more sexually "let loose" than in more conservative America but I still found it "unusual" for a legitimately ordained teacher from an old respectable tradition. I'm guessing he is from the summer of love generation so the only thing that came to my mind was that I have been under the impression that at a certain level of spiritual development it's advisable to abstain fom sexuality completely.
flavio81 wrote:I would advise that, before worrying about alchemy, sexual energy, kundalini and so on, better try to educate yourself as most as possible about the fundamentals of Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism as well, because buddhsim is all about destroying (or overcoming) ego in #1, not about trying to develop special powers or abilities via apparently advanced techniques. To do the latter can be cause for more attachment and ego if the foundations and the motivation aren't solid and correct.

Yes I know this but I have already completed awakened the first Kundalini process about 1 year ago so I wanted to know if these ideas are even contained within Tibetan Buddhism because I find that yoga asanas combined with meditation is helpful for me to get an even flow & would just like to know if there was more knowledge to be gained in these practices when & if I reach that step.
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Re: Karma Kagyu versus Diamond way

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:50 am

Shamati wrote:I'm guessing he is from the summer of love generation so the only thing that came to my mind was that I have been under the impression that at a certain level of spiritual development it's advisable to abstain fom sexuality completely.
Only if you are a monastic. Lay people can take vows of celibacy if they wish, but it is not a prerequisite for their spiritual practice.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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