Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:19 pm

smcj wrote:
Vajradhara along with all the other Vajrayana Buddhas claim they have perfected the path of Vajrayana (the path to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings_).

Like I pointed out before its obvious Vajradhara and the other Vajrayana Buddhas have not perfected this path due there still being suffering sentient beings.

According to the teachings on Buddha Nature, when someone becomes totally enlightened they can see the Buddha Nature, the enlightened essence, in everyone else also. Thus for the enlightened person, the unenlightened appear as enlightened also.

It's a bit of a cop-out, but doctrinal nevertheless. :-(


Only the doctrinal Hinayana (enlightenment for oneself) Buddha can be taken seriously.

The Vajrayana/Mahayana Buddhas seem to be just flowery nonsense.

If the Gurus could be more practical I think the practitioners realizations would speed up on the path of Vajrayana/Mahayana.

The flowery teachings seem out of date and get in the way of realizations.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:00 am

Only the doctrinal Hinayana (enlightenment for oneself) Buddha can be taken seriously.

Seeing things that way means you probably have the karma to practice Theravada.

However appropriate Theravada may be for you, please allow for the open mindedness to posit that other paths may be appropriate for other people. Non-sectarianism is a wonderful thing.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:22 am

smcj wrote:
Only the doctrinal Hinayana (enlightenment for oneself) Buddha can be taken seriously.

Seeing things that way means you probably have the karma to practice Theravada.

However appropriate Theravada may be for you, please allow for the open mindedness to posit that other paths may be appropriate for other people. Non-sectarianism is a wonderful thing.



I am not sectarian. I have practiced that Vaj/Mah path for many years.

The Buddha's or results in Vaj/Mah (to obtain enlightenment for -all- beings) paths clearly are just empty on paper.

The sectarianism is clearly from your side, but its unavoidable due to you wanting to protect something that claims to be complete but clearly is not.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:35 am

The Buddha's or results in Vaj/Mah (to obtain enlightenment for -all- beings) paths clearly are just empty on paper.
... but its unavoidable due to you wanting to protect something that claims to be complete but clearly is not.

I am sorry Vajrayana has not worked out for you. May you quickly find the path that is right for you. :-)
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:50 am

smcj wrote:
The Buddha's or results in Vaj/Mah (to obtain enlightenment for -all- beings) paths clearly are just empty on paper.
... but its unavoidable due to you wanting to protect something that claims to be complete but clearly is not.

I am sorry Vajrayana has not worked out for you. May you quickly find the path that is right for you. :-)


Vajrayana is still being practiced.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby kirtu » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:16 am

brendan wrote:
kirt wrote:We can still cultivate the aspiration while practicing Vajrayana assiduously.

Kirt


The problem being that no one has achieved Vajrayana Buddhahood let along the higher stages or Bhumis of the Bodhisattva path. How could they, there are still suffering sentient beings!

From a Hinayana (to obtain enlightenment for oneself) perspective cessation of suffering seems possible. But from a Vajrayana/Mahayna (to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings), cessation of suffering clearly hasnt happened.


No, the attainment of the bhumi's are enjoyed by the person attaining them not by all beings. Beings not on the bhumi's still experience their own particular defilements and obscurations. The attainment of Buddhahood does not result in Buddhahood for all other beings. All beings have to attain Buddhahood on their own. Attainments and realizations are completely individual.

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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:26 am

kirtu wrote:
brendan wrote:
kirt wrote:We can still cultivate the aspiration while practicing Vajrayana assiduously.

Kirt


The problem being that no one has achieved Vajrayana Buddhahood let along the higher stages or Bhumis of the Bodhisattva path. How could they, there are still suffering sentient beings!

From a Hinayana (to obtain enlightenment for oneself) perspective cessation of suffering seems possible. But from a Vajrayana/Mahayna (to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings), cessation of suffering clearly hasnt happened.


No, the attainment of the bhumi's are enjoyed by the person attaining them not by all beings. Beings not on the bhumi's still experience their own particular defilements and obscurations. The attainment of Buddhahood does not result in Buddhahood for all other beings. All beings have to attain Buddhahood on their own. Attainments and realizations are completely individual.

Kirt


If that was true Buddhahood would be the result of going for enlightenment for oneself (Hinayana), but Buddhahood (Vajrayana) is said to be the result of going for enlightenment for _all_ beings.

The attainment and enjoyment of the Bhumis are still samsaric due to there still being suffering sentient beings.

Also when Buddhahood ( from a Vajrayana/Mahayana path) is complete omniscience is perfected so one could see all causes of suffering. So why would a suffering sentient being have to attain realizations from _ there_ side. Vajradhara (Buddhahood) would eradicate all traces of suffering (sentient beings) due to the results of Buddhahood ie: perfect omnisicience along with the 5 wisdoms.

It's a cope out.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:51 am

Also when Buddhahood ( from a Vajrayana/Mahayana path) is complete omniscience is perfected so one could see all causes of suffering. So why would a suffering sentient being have to attain realizations from _ there_ side.

Think of it like a drunk going to AA. The sober person knows exactly what the problem LOOKS like to the drunk, but the drunk has it all wrong. The sober person has the answer, but the drunk has to become reasonable enough to try implementing it. The sober person knows the seed of sobriety is in there (as a Buddha can see our Budda Nature), but it has to be uncovered.

But you've got to be sober to help the drunk, and realized to help the practitioner. Otherwise it is the blind leading the blind.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:03 am

smcj wrote:
Also when Buddhahood ( from a Vajrayana/Mahayana path) is complete omniscience is perfected so one could see all causes of suffering. So why would a suffering sentient being have to attain realizations from _ there_ side.

Think of it like a drunk going to AA. The sober person knows exactly what the problem LOOKS like to the drunk, but the drunk has it all wrong. The sober person has the answer, but the drunk has to become reasonable enough to try implementing it. The sober person knows the seed of sobriety is in there (as a Buddha can see our Budda Nature), but it has to be uncovered.

But you've got to be sober to help the drunk, and realized to help the practitioner. Otherwise it is the blind leading the blind.


I understand the marketing.

If Buddhahood has been archived as claimed both the causes of being drunk and being sober could be showen in real time for both the drunk and the sober one.

Due to Buddhahood ( the result of the path to obtain enlightenment for _ all_ beings) claiming it has has eradicated _ all_ the seeds of suffering so there for there would be no suffering anywhere.

The attainments of the Bhumis are still samsaric due to there still being suffering sentient beings. yet Buddhas claim the Bhumi states are archived through eradicating the suffering of _ all_ sentient beings.

It's a cope out.
Last edited by brendan on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:11 am

Buddhahood ( the result of the path to obtain enlightenment for _ all_ beings) claims it is has eradicated _ all_ the seeds of suffering so there would be no suffering.

A Buddha is able to work for the benefit of others. They do NOT become omnipotent. That idea is in another religion.

They have eradicated all the seeds of suffering for THEMSELVES otherwise we would all have become enlightened simultaneously with Sakyamuni.

Or am I not understanding what you are trying to say?
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:20 am

smcj wrote:
Buddhahood ( the result of the path to obtain enlightenment for _ all_ beings) claims it is has eradicated _ all_ the seeds of suffering so there would be no suffering.

A Buddha is able to work for the benefit of others. They do NOT become omnipotent. That idea is in another religion.

They have eradicated all the seeds of suffering for THEMSELVES otherwise we would all have become enlightened simultaneously with Sakyamuni.

Or am I not understanding what you are trying to say?


With Buddhahood comes perfect omnisience along with the 5 wisdoms.

So there for in real time both causes for being drunk and sober could be shown in real time to the two characters in your example.

Buddhahood can apparently see both the causes for positive and negative actions.

It really is a cop out.

We have to work it out for ourselves because Buddhahood is only Buddhahood on paper.

You should check the results of Bhumi achievements if you don't believe me.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:35 am

I don't think your interpretation/expectation, and therefore your criticism, is valid in a traditional view.

A buddha's wisdom is omniscient. Their activities are NOT omnipotent. There is no literature that I know of in any school that makes that claim.

So what then are the activities of a Vajrayana Buddha according to tradition? That's an excellent question. Anybody brave enough to take a shot at it? It isn't fully articulated in the texts AFAIK.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:50 am

smcj wrote:I don't think your interpretation/expectation, and therefore your criticism, is valid in a traditional view.

A buddha's wisdom is omniscient. Their activities are NOT omnipotent. There is no literature that I know of in any school that makes that claim.

So what then are the activities of a Vajrayana Buddha according to tradition? That's an excellent question. Anybody brave enough to take a shot at it? It isn't fully articulated in the texts AFAIK.


I understand the difference between the two, but im not the one claiming im Vajradhara.

I understand wiki is not so good but read through the Bhumis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism)

Vajradhara is beyond the last bhumi (10th) by the way, in that example ( im sure you know that)

Vajradhara also claims it is omniscient (the ability to know) along with perfecting the 5 wisdoms.

If that was true there would be no suffering anywere.

Its like watching a child drink poison.

To say that co-emergence must happen from the other side is a cop out.

If all is empty than eradicating all sentient beings suffering is also empty.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:05 am

kirtu wrote:
brendan wrote:
kirt wrote:We can still cultivate the aspiration while practicing Vajrayana assiduously.

Kirt


The problem being that no one has achieved Vajrayana Buddhahood let along the higher stages or Bhumis of the Bodhisattva path. How could they, there are still suffering sentient beings!

From a Hinayana (to obtain enlightenment for oneself) perspective cessation of suffering seems possible. But from a Vajrayana/Mahayna (to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings), cessation of suffering clearly hasnt happened.


No, the attainment of the bhumi's are enjoyed by the person attaining them not by all beings. Beings not on the bhumi's still experience their own particular defilements and obscurations. The attainment of Buddhahood does not result in Buddhahood for all other beings. All beings have to attain Buddhahood on their own. Attainments and realizations are completely individual.

Kirt


Why is it co-emergence from the otherside?

Its like would you allow a baby to drink poison.

The attainments of Buddhahood clearly states perfect omniscience along with the 5 wisdoms.

It seems a cop out and the attainments of Bhuddhahood still seemed traced with afflictions to me.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:17 am

Vajradhara also claims it is omniscient (the ability to know) along with perfecting the 5 wisdoms.

If that was true there would be no suffering anywere.

You've said that several times. I still do no see how the second sentence follows the first.
It's like watching a child drink poison.

Yes, exactly so.
To say that co-emergence must happen from the other side is a cop out.

I didn't understand that
If all is empty than eradicating all sentient beings suffering is also empty.

Something being self-empty does not mean it isn't a functioning phenomena through interdependence. The law of karma works until you transcend it, just like you are subject to the law of gravity until you attain an orbit.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby Anders » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:16 am

Brendan,

You have profoundly misunderstood what Buddhahood means in all traditions of Buddhism.

Buddhahood does not = liberation for all living beings.

Buddhahood is obtained for the sake of liberating all beings, because it is the pre-eminent way of assisting beings to their liberation. But it has always been the case in all traditions that Buddhas can not awaken others by their own power. They can assist, but ultimately it is up to oneself to make the step across the threshold and liberate oneself.

I really don't know what to say except that if you have these ideas, you really need to study some Buddhism 101. There is some kindergarden stuff you have missed and it is sad to see you are using your lack of education as a basis for such slander.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:18 pm

Anders wrote:Brendan,

You have profoundly misunderstood what Buddhahood means in all traditions of Buddhism.

Buddhahood does not = liberation for all living beings.

Buddhahood is obtained for the sake of liberating all beings, because it is the pre-eminent way of assisting beings to their liberation. But it has always been the case in all traditions that Buddhas can not awaken others by their own power. They can assist, but ultimately it is up to oneself to make the step across the threshold and liberate oneself.

I really don't know what to say except that if you have these ideas, you really need to study some Buddhism 101. There is some kindergarden stuff you have missed and it is sad to see you are using your lack of education as a basis for such slander.


I understand the marketing.

I also understand the term "assist" is used very loosely considering what the 14 Bhumis claim.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:56 pm

I also understand the term "assist" is used very loosely considering what the 14 Bhumis claim.

Busy today. Will read the Wiki page on bhumis more closely later.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby muni » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:49 am

There are a lot of different manners to eat our noodle Dharma soup. But the soup doesn't digest if we grasp to the way we feel comfortable with, we need to eat. Then it digest and all focus on the way how to do is gone. There is just peace and no corrections of others' spoons or bowls, while they are actually dying of starvation.
Instead there arises an incredible compassion in order all can eat-digest Dharma in their possible way. I suppose then we can learn how to help and tell beings how to do by their possible ways in accordance with their being.

Therefore, I feel it is dinner time.

While I saw on travel an information paper with instructions of the oxigen mask and saw this as a fine souvenir to put in my hand bag, I heard on the plane: put first your own oxigen mask on and breath normally, then help children and others as well to put it on.

Which type this is, I don't know. I suppose it depends on own mind.

:namaste:
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:05 pm

muni wrote:There are a lot of different manners to eat our noodle Dharma soup. But the soup doesn't digest if we grasp to the way we feel comfortable with, we need to eat. Then it digest and all focus on the way how to do is gone. There is just peace and no corrections of others' spoons or bowls, while they are actually dying of starvation.
Instead there arises an incredible compassion in order all can eat-digest Dharma in their possible way. I suppose then we can learn how to help and tell beings how to do by their possible ways in accordance with their being.

Therefore, I feel it is dinner time.

While I saw on travel an information paper with instructions of the oxigen mask and saw this as a fine souvenir to put in my hand bag, I heard on the plane: put first your own oxigen mask on and breath normally, then help children and others as well to put it on.

Which type this is, I don't know. I suppose it depends on own mind.

:namaste:


Leave it for the ones who claim suffering is empty.

After all, aparently there are as many of them as there are atoms and all they do is assist.
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