More Bon than Buddha?

User avatar
beautiful breath
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:00 am

More Bon than Buddha?

Post by beautiful breath »

The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Grigoris »

beautiful breath wrote:The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...
No. You seem to overlook the fact that the Buddhist tantric traditions of Tibet originated from Indian Buddhist tantrics. Of course there are some Bon influences, but...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
beautiful breath
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:00 am

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by beautiful breath »

No. You seem to overlook the fact that the Buddhist tantric traditions of Tibet originated from Indian Buddhist tantrics. Of course there are some Bon influences, but...
But...?
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by heart »

beautiful breath wrote:The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...
Perhaps you are just ignorant about Theravada traditions? 2 minutes of google and I found this http://tdm.sas.upenn.edu/monastery/ritual_liturgy.html

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
beautiful breath
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:00 am

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by beautiful breath »

Perhaps you are just ignorant about Theravada traditions? 2 minutes of google and I found this http://tdm.sas.upenn.edu/monastery/ritual_liturgy.html

/magnus
Nice read.

Still doesn't answer my question though.

No matter.

BB...
User avatar
heart
Posts: 6288
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by heart »

beautiful breath wrote:
Perhaps you are just ignorant about Theravada traditions? 2 minutes of google and I found this http://tdm.sas.upenn.edu/monastery/ritual_liturgy.html

/magnus
Nice read.

Still doesn't answer my question though.

No matter.

BB...
No, the Tibetan tradition of Buddhism is not Bon. Vajrayana traditions exist for example in Japan, Shingon, and has a direct lineage from India without passing Tibet. It has all the rituals and bells and all those things you don't think is Buddha's teaching.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
User avatar
Sönam
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Sönam »

Did you already learn that Buddha Shakyamuni turned 3 times the Wheel of the Dharma? ... the first time he mainly taught the 4 Noble Truths. That's what Sravakas (Theravadin, ...) think he taught only. The second turn he taught the prajnaparamita, teachings about emptiness, mainly. The third time he taught Buddha nature, Tathagatagarbha. All others vehicles (yanas) accept the 3 Turns of the Wheel of the Dharma.
Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings and so on in Tibetan tradition are symbols, and used as skilful means ... and about Bon, some considere that Bon tooks many practice from the Tibetan tradition. This is subject to discussion.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5714
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by conebeckham »

beautiful breath wrote:The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...
No, it's mainly Indian, though certainly elements of native Tibetan practice were transformed and "incorporated" in Tibetan practice.

You might, instead, ask whether Vajrayana is more Hindu than Buddhist...
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Grigoris »

conebeckham wrote:You might, instead, ask whether Vajrayana is more Hindu than Buddhist...
Now there is a question worth asking! :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Konchog1
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Konchog1 »

beautiful breath wrote:The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...
The Buddha doesn't talk about incense or mediation mats in the Pali canon either, why talk about the tools?

Also Theravada and Mahayana arose around the same time. So naturally their canon was selected to promote a certain point of view.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
beautiful breath
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:00 am

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by beautiful breath »

The Buddha doesn't talk about incense or mediation mats in the Pali canon either, why talk about the tools
Excellent point!
User avatar
beautiful breath
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:00 am

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by beautiful breath »

gregkavarnos wrote:
conebeckham wrote:You might, instead, ask whether Vajrayana is more Hindu than Buddhist...
Now there is a question worth asking! :smile:

Oddly enough, I recall noticing the glaring similarities in Kali and Vajrayogini when first coming across Vajrayana.
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

There's a kind of implied fundamentalism in saying "well, the Buddha never did this so"...I personally do not believe there is one right interpretation of Buddhism, but there are certainly those who can argue the case for their relevancy better than others, trouble is, when that argument is something like "this is the original teaching", that is generally a poor, and meaningless argument of and within itself.

While it's true that at first glance Vajrayana seems quite far from the Pali Canon, I think that if one starts with the Pali stuff and moves forward in history, there is actually a great deal of consistency, as much as one can hope for consistency from anything.

I wonder why people always single out Vajrayana for this complaint, when many of these supposedly "non-Buddhist" things are found throughout all of Mahayana.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
User avatar
Dorje Shedrub
Posts: 438
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:23 pm
Location: Indiana, USA

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

Konchog1 wrote:The Buddha doesn't talk about incense or mediation mats in the Pali canon either, why talk about the tools?

Also Theravada and Mahayana arose around the same time. So naturally their canon was selected to promote a certain point of view.
Actually, He did speak of incense. Just one example:
"And even, Ananda, as with the body of a universal monarch, so should it be done with the body of the Tathagata; and at a crossroads also a stupa should be raised for the Tathagata. And whosoever shall bring to that place garlands or incense or sandalpaste, or pay reverence, and whose mind becomes calm there — it will be to his well being and happiness for a long time." (Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha ch. 5 vs. 26)
Homage to the Precious Dzogchen Master
🙏🌺🙏 Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
🙏🌺🙏
User avatar
flavio81
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:25 am
Location: Lima, Peru

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by flavio81 »

beautiful breath wrote:The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations.
That is what some of them think, but the Buddha didn't create the Theravada tradition. The Theravada is a buddhist branch based on a group of 'elders' that established their point of view relative to Buddhist scriptures.

Tibetan Buddhism is still Buddhism and with this the Theravada should agree, at least if they respect this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Poi ... 1y%C4%81na
User avatar
flavio81
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:25 am
Location: Lima, Peru

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by flavio81 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:There's a kind of implied fundamentalism in saying "well, the Buddha never did this so"...I personally do not believe there is one right interpretation of Buddhism, but there are certainly those who can argue the case for their relevancy better than others, trouble is, when that argument is something like "this is the original teaching", that is generally a poor, and meaningless argument of and within itself.
Oh, definitely.
Motova
Posts: 1322
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Motova »

conebeckham wrote:
beautiful breath wrote:The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...
No, it's mainly Indian, though certainly elements of native Tibetan practice were transformed and "incorporated" in Tibetan practice.

You might, instead, ask whether Vajrayana is more Hindu than Buddhist...
I read in, "Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism" by Lama Anagarika Govinda, that Buddhist Tantras came first and that the Hindus were heavily influenced from them.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Grigoris »

Hanuman Yant.jpg
Hanuman Yant.jpg (46.59 KiB) Viewed 5721 times
Hanuman Yant blessed by the Theravada monk LP Sin of the Thai monastary Wat Laharnyai.

Is Theravada Buddhism more Hindu than Buddha(sic)?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
beautiful breath
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:00 am

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by beautiful breath »

gregkavarnos wrote:
Hanuman Yant.jpg
Hanuman Yant blessed by the Theravada monk LP Sin of the Thai monastary Wat Laharnyai.

Is Theravada Buddhism more Hindu than Buddha(sic)?
:good:

Oooer! Odd how preconceptions and generic ideas can be so wrong!

I have always been content with how 'Tibetan' Buddhism has been presented to me, but equally always looked upon it as a divergence from the roots of Buddhist thought. Seems I may have been wrong after all. So the 'theravadins' don't actually have any real evidence to lay claim to being the 'purest' interpretation of the Dharma?

Maybe a dip into Buddhist academia might help me understand more...
User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 2034
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Helena, MT
Contact:

Re: More Bon than Buddha?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

beautiful breath wrote:So the 'theravadins' don't actually have any real evidence to lay claim to being the 'purest' interpretation of the Dharma?
Correct. This point has been discussed a lot on here and other forums. I'm sure you can find some really long debates about this using the search function.
Post Reply

Return to “Gelug”