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 Post subject: More Bon than Buddha?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:23 pm 
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The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:52 pm 
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beautiful breath wrote:
The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...
No. You seem to overlook the fact that the Buddhist tantric traditions of Tibet originated from Indian Buddhist tantrics. Of course there are some Bon influences, but...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:03 pm 
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No. You seem to overlook the fact that the Buddhist tantric traditions of Tibet originated from Indian Buddhist tantrics. Of course there are some Bon influences, but...


But...?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:47 pm 
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beautiful breath wrote:
The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...


Perhaps you are just ignorant about Theravada traditions? 2 minutes of google and I found this http://tdm.sas.upenn.edu/monastery/ritual_liturgy.html

/magnus

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Perhaps you are just ignorant about Theravada traditions? 2 minutes of google and I found this http://tdm.sas.upenn.edu/monastery/ritual_liturgy.html

/magnus


Nice read.

Still doesn't answer my question though.

No matter.

BB...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:30 pm 
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beautiful breath wrote:
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Perhaps you are just ignorant about Theravada traditions? 2 minutes of google and I found this http://tdm.sas.upenn.edu/monastery/ritual_liturgy.html

/magnus


Nice read.

Still doesn't answer my question though.

No matter.

BB...


No, the Tibetan tradition of Buddhism is not Bon. Vajrayana traditions exist for example in Japan, Shingon, and has a direct lineage from India without passing Tibet. It has all the rituals and bells and all those things you don't think is Buddha's teaching.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:27 pm 
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Did you already learn that Buddha Shakyamuni turned 3 times the Wheel of the Dharma? ... the first time he mainly taught the 4 Noble Truths. That's what Sravakas (Theravadin, ...) think he taught only. The second turn he taught the prajnaparamita, teachings about emptiness, mainly. The third time he taught Buddha nature, Tathagatagarbha. All others vehicles (yanas) accept the 3 Turns of the Wheel of the Dharma.
Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings and so on in Tibetan tradition are symbols, and used as skilful means ... and about Bon, some considere that Bon tooks many practice from the Tibetan tradition. This is subject to discussion.

Sönam

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:49 pm 
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beautiful breath wrote:
The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...

No, it's mainly Indian, though certainly elements of native Tibetan practice were transformed and "incorporated" in Tibetan practice.

You might, instead, ask whether Vajrayana is more Hindu than Buddhist...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:17 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
You might, instead, ask whether Vajrayana is more Hindu than Buddhist...
Now there is a question worth asking! :smile:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:41 pm 
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beautiful breath wrote:
The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...
The Buddha doesn't talk about incense or mediation mats in the Pali canon either, why talk about the tools?

Also Theravada and Mahayana arose around the same time. So naturally their canon was selected to promote a certain point of view.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:28 pm 
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The Buddha doesn't talk about incense or mediation mats in the Pali canon either, why talk about the tools


Excellent point!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:31 pm 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
You might, instead, ask whether Vajrayana is more Hindu than Buddhist...
Now there is a question worth asking! :smile:



Oddly enough, I recall noticing the glaring similarities in Kali and Vajrayogini when first coming across Vajrayana.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:01 pm 
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There's a kind of implied fundamentalism in saying "well, the Buddha never did this so"...I personally do not believe there is one right interpretation of Buddhism, but there are certainly those who can argue the case for their relevancy better than others, trouble is, when that argument is something like "this is the original teaching", that is generally a poor, and meaningless argument of and within itself.

While it's true that at first glance Vajrayana seems quite far from the Pali Canon, I think that if one starts with the Pali stuff and moves forward in history, there is actually a great deal of consistency, as much as one can hope for consistency from anything.

I wonder why people always single out Vajrayana for this complaint, when many of these supposedly "non-Buddhist" things are found throughout all of Mahayana.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:26 am 
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Konchog1 wrote:
The Buddha doesn't talk about incense or mediation mats in the Pali canon either, why talk about the tools?

Also Theravada and Mahayana arose around the same time. So naturally their canon was selected to promote a certain point of view.


Actually, He did speak of incense. Just one example:
"And even, Ananda, as with the body of a universal monarch, so should it be done with the body of the Tathagata; and at a crossroads also a stupa should be raised for the Tathagata. And whosoever shall bring to that place garlands or incense or sandalpaste, or pay reverence, and whose mind becomes calm there — it will be to his well being and happiness for a long time." (Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha ch. 5 vs. 26)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:44 am 
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beautiful breath wrote:
The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations.


That is what some of them think, but the Buddha didn't create the Theravada tradition. The Theravada is a buddhist branch based on a group of 'elders' that established their point of view relative to Buddhist scriptures.

Tibetan Buddhism is still Buddhism and with this the Theravada should agree, at least if they respect this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Points_Unifying_the_Therav%C4%81da_and_the_Mah%C4%81y%C4%81na


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:48 am 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
There's a kind of implied fundamentalism in saying "well, the Buddha never did this so"...I personally do not believe there is one right interpretation of Buddhism, but there are certainly those who can argue the case for their relevancy better than others, trouble is, when that argument is something like "this is the original teaching", that is generally a poor, and meaningless argument of and within itself.


Oh, definitely.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:50 am 
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conebeckham wrote:
beautiful breath wrote:
The Tibetan traditions seem a million miles away from the Theravadins who I understand are considered to be the closest to what the Buddha actually taught himself prior to any major interpretations. There were no Vajras, Bells, Inner Offerings....etc... in the Discourses :smile:

Is the Tibetan tradition more Bon than Buddha?

Thanks,

BB...

No, it's mainly Indian, though certainly elements of native Tibetan practice were transformed and "incorporated" in Tibetan practice.

You might, instead, ask whether Vajrayana is more Hindu than Buddhist...


I read in, "Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism" by Lama Anagarika Govinda, that Buddhist Tantras came first and that the Hindus were heavily influenced from them.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:43 am 
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Hanuman Yant.jpg
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Hanuman Yant blessed by the Theravada monk LP Sin of the Thai monastary Wat Laharnyai.

Is Theravada Buddhism more Hindu than Buddha(sic)?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:58 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Attachment:
Hanuman Yant.jpg


Hanuman Yant blessed by the Theravada monk LP Sin of the Thai monastary Wat Laharnyai.

Is Theravada Buddhism more Hindu than Buddha(sic)?


:good:

Oooer! Odd how preconceptions and generic ideas can be so wrong!

I have always been content with how 'Tibetan' Buddhism has been presented to me, but equally always looked upon it as a divergence from the roots of Buddhist thought. Seems I may have been wrong after all. So the 'theravadins' don't actually have any real evidence to lay claim to being the 'purest' interpretation of the Dharma?

Maybe a dip into Buddhist academia might help me understand more...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:50 pm 
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beautiful breath wrote:
So the 'theravadins' don't actually have any real evidence to lay claim to being the 'purest' interpretation of the Dharma?

Correct. This point has been discussed a lot on here and other forums. I'm sure you can find some really long debates about this using the search function.


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