Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Prasadachitta » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:34 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

vinasp
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:33 pm

Hi everyone,

"This is called a bhikkhu who is practising for the utterly complete
destruction of suffering, ...." [ SN 12.51 Bhikkhu Bodhi page 587. ]

And when he becomes an Arahant all mental suffering will cease.
But he will still have bodily suffering from time to time, while he is
still alive. After death he is not reborn, so bodily suffering ceases.

Regards, Vincent.

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Ferox
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Ferox » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:59 pm

from what I gather an Arahant/buddha feels all the same bodily things any one of us would and experiences the same phenomena, it's the fact that the Arahant has changed his own mind/perspective/let go etc that is "different". As someone said before enlightened beings feel pain, but they only know it as a feeling of pain, there is no attached aversion or craving to any of these feelings. I believe it's called Dukkha Dukkhata(sp?) which is physical pain as opposed to the mental pain, or the mental arrow.

I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging,

I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness

I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.


those three things STILL apply technically to an enlightened person who is still living.. once they die/pass on/parinibanna however you want to call it.. then they HAVE gone beyond all those things, because there is no further rebirth.
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-

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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby vinasp » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:34 am

Hi everyone,

With Dependent Origination (DO) the question of what suffering ceases
depends on one's interpretation of the formula.

1. If ignorance and formations are understood as one's previous life, then
the formula can include one's actual physical body. This means that all
of the links cannot cease with enlightenment, some will remain until
the body dies. So bodily suffering also remains.

2. If one understands ignorance in the formula as being present now, and at
all times, then the suffering which has arisen can only be mental. So
only this kind of suffering ceases. In this case all the links can cease.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:38 am

I think we have a tendency to assume in this way:

If I experience headache, and to me and to majority of people that is pain, then if you arhat and buddha experience headache, you must also experience pain.

If someone cut my hand, and to me and to majority of people that is a great disaster, then if you arhat and buddha experience the same thing, you must also experience great disaster.

If all those things are called dukka or suffering, then to you arhat and buddha, that one will also called dukka and suffering.

We use what we experience and impose it to others, and think to my standard: If it is this to me, to you it is also this. If it is that to me, to you it is also that.

If we go to under the sun, you may feel very hot.
The degree of heat depends on the degree of your grasping to that heat. You can prove it yourself.
If you grasp it less, now the same heat become less painful.
If you can be totally free from grasping, that same heat is really not a pain at all.

So, where is the dukka? Where is the suffering?

Whether you call it dukka or you call it suffering, it doesn't matter. For people who can be absoluty free from grasping, that is not dukka, that is also not suffering.

Everything is a series of depending origination. If there is an "element" that can free us from grasping, and that is the realization of having no self, everything will turn to bliss. The heat of fire is felt as bliss, ice is felt as bliss, everything is felt as bliss.

Exactly same event, for us this is joy, this is suffering, for buddha everything is just bliss. Just because they have no grasping.

This is not something extraordinary. It just depends on how far we can be free from grasping, like when we are under the sun.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:46 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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ground
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby ground » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:25 am


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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:03 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:16 am

Greetings Kirk,

It doesn't seem too unreasonable in the context of...

MN 122: Maha-suññata Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:24 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:31 am

Have we ever experience getting burn by fire?

Just a small fire, we will react like crazy monkey, jumping here and there.

The pain of fire cannot be manipulated. If we feel the pain, we will scream, we will jump. That is because we have pain.

Everything depends on causes and condition. When we have the notion of self, this is the result we will get. When we don't have the notion of self, that is the result we will get.

Same thing happen to us, just because we have different mindset, the result is extremely different.

The notion of no self is not an intellect concept. If we don't know what it is, even when we put this body into fire, and we say no self, no self, we will jump like monkey due to pain.

The notion of self is the real thing that come out from his realization from his meditation and contemplation.

If pain is pain, all people who get burn will feel the pain. No matter, you have the notion of self or not, you will feel the pain.

But reality doesn't show us this. Pain is not pain. It depends on causes and conditions, whether you have the notion of self or not.

The first video show an ordinary people, who got burn. You can really feel his pain.
The second video show a female monk, who burn himself recently in Tibet. From the reaction, you can judge there is pain or not.
The third video show the male monk in 196x. Same reaction with the female monk. But the female monk is in standing position.

Is pain free from causes and condition?

Just the realization of no self can change the whole story even when this body is still here.





I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Aloka
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Aloka » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:45 am

I think that if someone drinks petrol as well as soaks themselves in it then the results will be too fast to know if the person feels pain. Sometimes the bodies explode in the flames.

Personally I would imagine that the pain is so intense that consciousness is lost very quickly.

I didn't watch the videos because I think this is such a horrific and tragic loss of life and not an action taught by the Buddha. Monks and nuns take precepts and not to take life includes ones own life.


.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha? Sure.

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:35 am


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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:41 am


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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:43 am

Last edited by Spiny O'Norman on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:44 am


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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha? Sure.

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:46 am


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acinteyyo
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha? Sure.

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:40 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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daverupa
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby daverupa » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:31 pm

:goodpost:

This is why I had earlier mentioned that "residue" was pancakkhandha. I neglected to go into detail, which has now been admirably done.

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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:34 pm



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