Mahamudra and Yogacara

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Astus
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Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby Astus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:55 pm

Here it is shown how the practice of Mahamudra and Yogacara match:

Maitreya's Dharmadharmatavibhaga:

"The comprehension of the correct
Yogic practice in four points
Is the yogic practice of observation,
The yogic practice of nonobservation,
The yogic practice of the nonobservation of observation,
And the yogic practice of the observation of nonobservation."

(Karl Brünnholzl: Mining for Wisdom within Delusion, p 167)

Rangjung Dorje's Mahamudra Aspiration Prayer:

"When observing objects, they are seen to be the mind,
devoid of objects.
When observing the mind, there is no mind, as it is empty of an entity.
When observing both, dualistic fixation is spontaneously freed.
May we realize the natural state of the luminous mind."

(Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche: Song of Karmapa, p 14)

Go Lotsawa's Commentary on The Distinction between Phenomena and the Nature of Phenomena:

"You may wonder, "Such is certainly the case, but if one holds that this text of the Bhagavan Maitreya is also a text of what is known as the yogas of Mahamudra, do the four yogas of this [Mahamudra] fit with those [four yogic practices in the Dharmadharmatiivibhaga]?" They do fit very well. The first [Mahamudra yoga] is to look inside and then to focus on [everything being] one's own mind. As for the explanation [in] the second [yogic practice] that there is nothing external, it is the [Mahamudra yoga of] freedom from reference points in which one realizes that all phenomena that are objects of the mind lack any basis or root. The realization that both what appears as [if] external and the inner mind free from reference points are of one taste is the yogic practice of the nonobservation of observation. To not meditate through deliberately focusing on even the nonduality of subject and object is called "nonmeditation," which is the fourth [Mahamudra] yoga."
(Mining for Wisdom within Delusion, p 320)

Do you know of other correlations?
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:25 pm

Which Yogacara? The one that posits an existent "mind?" Or later interpretations? :smile:

That's an interesting "take" on the Four Yogas by Go Lotsawa, I'd not seen that before! Thanks.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby Astus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:38 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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smcj
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby smcj » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:05 pm

Don't take me too seriously.

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby Astus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:09 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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smcj
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Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby smcj » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:58 pm

Don't take me too seriously.

Jinzang
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby Jinzang » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:04 am

The late Traleg Rinpoche wrote a book on the . I haven't read it, but his other stuff is quite good,.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!"

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smcj
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:01 am

Don't take me too seriously.

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby Astus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:24 am

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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smcj
Posts: 5265
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby smcj » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:20 am

Don't take me too seriously.

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby Astus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:54 am

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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conebeckham
Posts: 4553
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Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:12 pm

There is a "pith instruction" special lineage of Shentong which KTGR holds, and which is not really "Yogacara," as I understand it. I wonder how that fits in to the assertions being made?


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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smcj
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby smcj » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:30 pm

Last edited by smcj on Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't take me too seriously.

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:59 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
smcj
Posts: 5265
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby smcj » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:21 pm

Don't take me too seriously.

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:33 pm

:smile:

No worries....I didn't think you were rude at all.

As I see it, Brunnholzl's stance is that Yogacara, at least as understood in Maitraya/Asanga's Five Treatises, does not postulate a "mind only" or what he calls "mere mentalist" position...he feels Yogacara does not assert an absolute existent phenomena ("mind"), but that it does assert a transcendent (beyond existence and nonexistence) Buddha Nature.

Malcolm had previously argued that Yogacara asserts that the dependent nature exists--but not in the way we "perceive it" (via the interaction of the imaginary nature). His position, and the position of most critics of Yogacara, in other words, is that it posits the Dependent Nature, purged of the Imaginary Nature, as the Perfect Nature. If this is true, does the Dependent Nature=Buddha Nature?

From the POV of Mahamudra, Does "Ordinary Mind" (in it's specific Mahamudra sense) equate to the Dependent nature?

There's some conceptual issues for us all to chew on, if we'd like.....this is the Internet, after all, as you note! :smile:


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby Astus » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:52 pm

I didn't mean this thread to slip into a debate about what is and what isn't Yogacara. I find it most fascinating that a primary Mahamudra method actually has a Yogacara source. So I'm interested if there are other things within the Mahamudra tradition that can be connected to Yogacara.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



In the bone yard
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:06 am

Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby In the bone yard » Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:01 pm

Hinayana
Mahayana
Vajrayana

Depth of realization:
Yogacara falls under Mahayana
Mahamudra falls under Vajrayana

There is only one path (through realization), so the Mahayana vehicle would have to encompass the Hinayana vehicle and the Vajrayana vehicle would have to encompasses both (or all).
If you can skip the Hinayana or Mahayana and go straight to Vajrayana then sign me up please! :jumping:
The more we try to learn the more complicated it becomes. It is a waste of time isn't it?
Sincere practice must precede realization!

Jinzang
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby Jinzang » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:05 am

"It's as plain as the nose on your face!"

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra and Yogacara

Postby conebeckham » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:49 pm

Actually, I think the majority of Kagyu Mahamudra practitioners don't really understand the subtle points of philosophy, nor do they need to.....Mahamudra is a practice tradition, essentially. They may say they are Shentong, but the formulation of any conceptual stance is not really beneficial to Mahamudra practice.

If we're talking conceptually, Shentong does indeed seem to support the "view" of Mahamudra to a great degree. But any philosophical view can be detrimental to practice, ultimately. (I said "Can Be"--it doesn't HAVE to be, but there are various types of people....) The main thing to understand about Shentong, therefore, is that what it is said to "posit" is actually transcendent and beyong the realm of intellect or conceptual grasping.

As I understand it, some Kagyupas espouse what they call a Rangtong view, others espouse a Shentong....but there are different interpretations of Shentong, as well. Brunnholzl walks you through the varieties....


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")


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