Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
Hello,
I was wondering if it is generally assumed that people in Vajrayana are king-like bodhisattvas? Are boatman-like and shepherd-like paths seen as kind of irrelevant in Vajrayana?
I was also hoping if someone could shed some light on the different benefits to sentient beings in regards to one being a king-like, boatman-like, and shepherd-like bodhisattva? Because if one is clearly more beneficial to sentient beings then I think that would render the rest as irrelevant.
I am trying not to get hung up on these things, as I am so low on the totem pole (no vows or guru). So basically I am trying to work on perfecting the six perfections with gusto, but it's something I have been thinking about lately.
Thank you.
I was wondering if it is generally assumed that people in Vajrayana are king-like bodhisattvas? Are boatman-like and shepherd-like paths seen as kind of irrelevant in Vajrayana?
I was also hoping if someone could shed some light on the different benefits to sentient beings in regards to one being a king-like, boatman-like, and shepherd-like bodhisattva? Because if one is clearly more beneficial to sentient beings then I think that would render the rest as irrelevant.
I am trying not to get hung up on these things, as I am so low on the totem pole (no vows or guru). So basically I am trying to work on perfecting the six perfections with gusto, but it's something I have been thinking about lately.
Thank you.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
I read somewhere that shepherd-like is the most admirable, but king-like is the only practical option.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
The king, boatman, and shepherd analogies are not characterizations of different types of bodhisattvas, but of different levels of bodhicitta motivation that a bodhisattva may have.
The king-like motivation, where one goes towards enlightenment so that one can then lead others on the Path, is the smallest motivation. The boatman analogy, where he takes all sentient beings with him, is the next greater motivation. The motivation of the shepherd, where the intent is to usher all sentient beings to enlightenment before himself, is considered the greatest.
But my understanding is that these are sequential, everyone starts out with the king-like motivation. The others are a description of the levels of freedom of love the bodhisattva experiences as his innate Buddha Nature finds expression with the removal of his obscurations. You should NOT think of it as a menu, decide to not work for your own enlightenment, and think that doing so is accomplishing the shepherd like motivation. Some lamas won't even teach this publicly because people get it all wrong.
IMHO
The king-like motivation, where one goes towards enlightenment so that one can then lead others on the Path, is the smallest motivation. The boatman analogy, where he takes all sentient beings with him, is the next greater motivation. The motivation of the shepherd, where the intent is to usher all sentient beings to enlightenment before himself, is considered the greatest.
But my understanding is that these are sequential, everyone starts out with the king-like motivation. The others are a description of the levels of freedom of love the bodhisattva experiences as his innate Buddha Nature finds expression with the removal of his obscurations. You should NOT think of it as a menu, decide to not work for your own enlightenment, and think that doing so is accomplishing the shepherd like motivation. Some lamas won't even teach this publicly because people get it all wrong.
IMHO
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
How is this supposed to work for the shepherd-like bodhisattva? Is it considered optimal to attain some particular bhumi and then "wait"/help? Surely he does not sit and eat Cheetos in his mother's basement until the time is ripe
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.
--Gampopa
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.
--Gampopa
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
You never know! Bodhisattvas move in mysterious ways!monktastic wrote:How is this supposed to work for the shepherd-like bodhisattva? Is it considered optimal to attain some particular bhumi and then "wait"/help? Surely he does not sit and eat Cheetos in his mother's basement until the time is ripe
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
In terms of a disceneable course of action, they might forego doing more retreat and start teaching, as an example.monktastic wrote:How is this supposed to work for the shepherd-like bodhisattva? Is it considered optimal to attain some particular bhumi and then "wait"/help? Surely he does not sit and eat Cheetos in his mother's basement until the time is ripe
But that is a crude example. We are talking about a bodhisattva's motivation, which is private and internal.
I could speculate about that, but I am limited by my own defiled imagination. It would be more an exercise in creative writing more than about actual Dharma.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
The shepherd-like Bodhisattva is the classic case of a Bodhisattva who does not enter nirvana until everyone else is enlightened. The image is of the shepherd going last into the pen after all the sheep have entered the pen. One could argue whether this is even possible but it doesn't matter. This is the motivation. In practical terms, such a Bodhisattva would strive for highest attainment in this lifetime but would make aspirations to return immediately to continue working. As a general rule, they wouldn't strive for rebirth in a Pure Land because then they don't return (although they could send emanations).monktastic wrote:How is this supposed to work for the shepherd-like bodhisattva? Is it considered optimal to attain some particular bhumi and then "wait"/help? Surely he does not sit and eat Cheetos in his mother's basement until the time is ripe
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
What's impractical about being a shepard?Konchog1 wrote:I read somewhere that shepherd-like is the most admirable, but king-like is the only practical option.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
Give it a try. Let us know how it works out.maybay wrote:What's impractical about being a shepard?Konchog1 wrote:I read somewhere that shepherd-like is the most admirable, but king-like is the only practical option.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
Come don't get personal. I sheparded 40 Saasen goats in the Alps. I wouldn't call it impractical, but you think different Konchog?smcj wrote:Give it a try. Let us know how it works out.maybay wrote:What's impractical about being a shepard?Konchog1 wrote:I read somewhere that shepherd-like is the most admirable, but king-like is the only practical option.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
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- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
I tried it. It didn't work. It was a train wreck. My own (defiled) imagination of what I thought that entailed defeated me.Come don't get personal. I sheparded 40 Saasen goats in the Alps. I wouldn't call it impractical, but you think different Konchog?Give it a try. Let us know how it works out.
Now I stick to paths the texts describe as 'inferior'. It's working much better for me now.
But hey, don't let me stop you. Maybe it's more karmically appropriate for you than me.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
- Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
It takes a LOT more time that way. Vajrayana is about swiftness and efficiency.maybay wrote:What's impractical about being a shepard?Konchog1 wrote:I read somewhere that shepherd-like is the most admirable, but king-like is the only practical option.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
In this society, trying to put everybody else before oneself only makes you pathologically co-dependent with the entire world. To do it in a healthy and productive manner you need to establish yourself in a higher level of sanity than is normaly available to us first.What's impractical about being a shepard?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
Of course your majesty.smcj wrote:In this society, trying to put everybody else before oneself only makes you pathologically co-dependent with the entire world. To do it in a healthy and productive manner you need to establish yourself in a higher level of sanity than is normaly available to us first.What's impractical about being a shepard?
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
Also, because there is huge difference in power and ability to help others between a tenth level Bodhisattva and a Buddha.tomamundsen wrote:It takes a LOT more time that way. Vajrayana is about swiftness and efficiency.maybay wrote:What's impractical about being a shepard?Konchog1 wrote:I read somewhere that shepherd-like is the most admirable, but king-like is the only practical option.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
We can still cultivate the aspiration while practicing Vajrayana assiduously.Konchog1 wrote:Also, because there is huge difference in power and ability to help others between a tenth level Bodhisattva and a Buddha.tomamundsen wrote:It takes a LOT more time that way. Vajrayana is about swiftness and efficiency.maybay wrote: What's impractical about being a shepard?
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
We can still cultivate the aspiration while practicing Vajrayana assiduously.
Kirt[/quote]
The problem being that no one has achieved Vajrayana Buddhahood let along the higher stages or Bhumis of the Bodhisattva path. How could they, there are still suffering sentient beings!
Yet Vajrayana and Mahayana followers are led to believe they must follow in the footsteps of these supreme beings. It really is a bit comical dont you think?
From a Hinayana (to obtain enlightenment for oneself) perspective cessation of suffering seems possible. But from a Vajrayana/Mahayna (to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings), cessation of suffering clearly hasnt happened.
Kirt[/quote]
The problem being that no one has achieved Vajrayana Buddhahood let along the higher stages or Bhumis of the Bodhisattva path. How could they, there are still suffering sentient beings!
Yet Vajrayana and Mahayana followers are led to believe they must follow in the footsteps of these supreme beings. It really is a bit comical dont you think?
From a Hinayana (to obtain enlightenment for oneself) perspective cessation of suffering seems possible. But from a Vajrayana/Mahayna (to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings), cessation of suffering clearly hasnt happened.
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
I wish I could see the comedy in not understanding ground, path and result.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
Ground path and result is the view of Vajrayana (the path to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings).maybay wrote:I wish I could see the comedy in not understanding ground, path and result.
Vajradhara along with all the other Vajrayana Buddhas claim they have perfected the path of Vajrayana (the path to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings_).
Like I pointed out before its obvious Vajradhara and the other Vajrayana Buddhas have not perfected this path due there still being suffering sentient beings.
Ground path and result are only empty on paper.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana
According to the teachings on Buddha Nature, when someone becomes totally enlightened they can see the Buddha Nature, the enlightened essence, in everyone else also. Thus for the enlightened person, the unenlightened appear as enlightened also.Vajradhara along with all the other Vajrayana Buddhas claim they have perfected the path of Vajrayana (the path to obtain enlightenment for _all_ sentient beings_).
Like I pointed out before its obvious Vajradhara and the other Vajrayana Buddhas have not perfected this path due there still being suffering sentient beings.
It's a bit of a cop-out, but doctrinal nevertheless.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)