Marihuana and meditation

Discuss your personal experience with the Dharma here. How has it enriched your life? What challenges does it present?

Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:25 pm

A brilliantly non-emotive and objectively reasoned comeback.

Keep your shirt on. You are being hysterical.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby flavio81 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:33 pm

Namu Butsu wrote: i was using sadhus as an example because quite a few of them can go deep into meditations and experience samadhis.


But they are not in the same Path as us buddhists. As far as i know, in the whole vajrayana vehicle, ganja is not a helper for practices. Additionally, as I've mentioned before, in this vehicle there are sometimes additional considerations with not annoying other kinds of beings (i.e. nagas) with certain kind of smoke.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:13 pm

It's far less physically harmful than alcohol, and does not have the same association with violence and bad behavior, nonetheless, it's an intoxicant and so the Buddhist view of it is pretty obvious.

I don't think there is necessarily anything terrible about recreational drug use, and lord knows i've engaged in plenty in my time...but it is what it is, and it doesn't do diddly squat for increasing concentration, clarity, or any other goal that Buddhists would be concerned with, it's just samsaric fun and should be viewed as such. I can accept that some high-level practitioners might find use for it, but isn't it funny how so many seem to think they've reached that point? Surely erring on the side of caution and just trying to follow the precepts is the best course if someone is unsure of their motivations, right?

IMO one of the problems with with Buddhism and intoxicants is simply that they are equal to running away from what you are supposed to be facing at the beginning of your journey. If you cannot sit with your own boredom, ennui, self-loathing or whatever and require a substance to "meditate", it seems to me you are not really capable yet of the basic mental stability required for most any meditative practice. In addition, being able to sit through unpleasant feelings seems to be the beginning of understanding the first noble truth, if you can't even do that for half an hour without recourse to pot or something...is there any real practice there?

My perspective is probably not, meditation is not only about collecting pleasant experiences or stuff that makes you think you are getting realization, and nearly everyone I talk to who thinks pot helps them meditate seem to have this kind of view, that meditation is meant to give a certain result, and that you can just use pot to get that end result faster. Buddhist meditation is not like that though, you have to chuck out all your ideas of purpose and attainment to get anywhere in the first place, and adding in drugs as some kind of facilitator is just another layer of nonsense that seems unnecessary.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby flavio81 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:43 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:If you cannot sit with your own boredom, ennui, self-loathing or whatever and require a substance to "meditate", it seems to me you are not really capable yet of the basic mental stability required for most any meditative practice(...) My perspective is probably not, meditation is not only about collecting pleasant experiences or stuff that makes you think you are getting realization

:good:
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby Nilasarasvati » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:47 pm

Just another "nobody" here...but yeah, I still occasionally smoke and all it does is strengthen my neurotic hamster-wheel a-spinnin'. It makes sensations more intense, it makes mental concepts more crystalline...but overall I think it just heightens all my obscurations, paranoias, delusions, depression, anxiety, grasping, etc. I generally don't experience it as an intoxicant so much as a psychotropic. It doesn't make me a better person though so it's really not for me.

However, lotuses do grow from shit.
I'd never have been driven to the teachings if it wasn't for the experiences I've had with psychedelics and psychotropics. :anjali:
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:32 pm

Same here actually, only it was with extreme bad trip due to smoking stuff that was cut with something as a teenager. Not sure that makes drug use positive in any way, but it does make you think about the weirdness of Karma I guess. This is not unusual though, many people are driven to the teachings from bad experiences..the Buddha himself even! That doesn't say anything about the catalyst though, does it? Seems that what brings people to dharma is as diverse as the number of people.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby M.G. » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:.
I don't think there is necessarily anything terrible about recreational drug use, and lord knows i've engaged in plenty in my time...but it is what it is, and it doesn't do diddly squat for increasing concentration, clarity, or any other goal that Buddhists would be concerned with, it's just samsaric fun and should be viewed as such. I can accept that some high-level practitioners might find use for it, but isn't it funny how so many seem to think they've reached that point? Surely erring on the side of caution and just trying to follow the precepts is the best course if someone is unsure of their motivations, right?

IMO one of the problems with with Buddhism and intoxicants is simply that they are equal to running away from what you are supposed to be facing at the beginning of your journey. If you cannot sit with your own boredom, ennui, self-loathing or whatever and require a substance to "meditate", it seems to me you are not really capable yet of the basic mental stability required for most any meditative practice. In addition, being able to sit through unpleasant feelings seems to be the beginning of understanding the first noble truth, if you can't even do that for half an hour without recourse to pot or something...is there any real practice there?.


:good:

I don't think its a great idea to meditate high, but the one skillful spiritual use of cannabis (or psychedelics) I can think of for even less than great practitioners might be to facilitate communication with worldly spirits, if for some reason that was necessary.

For the most part, though, I'd agree that non-medical use of cannabis is mostly just one more way we humans try to make life less boring.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby Namu Butsu » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:36 pm

A brilliantly non-emotive and objectively reasoned comeback.

Keep your shirt on. You are being hysterical.


Yet just moments before you were accusing me of trying to justify being a buddhist stoner, which shows you did not clearly read my post or just wished to ignore the fact that i said it has nothing to do with Buddhism. but its okay ill put my shirt back on.


flavio81 wrote:
Namu Butsu wrote: i was using sadhus as an example because quite a few of them can go deep into meditations and experience samadhis.


But they are not in the same Path as us buddhists. As far as i know, in the whole vajrayana vehicle, ganja is not a helper for practices. Additionally, as I've mentioned before, in this vehicle there are sometimes additional considerations with not annoying other kinds of beings (i.e. nagas) with certain kind of smoke.



Right I agree thats why i said

But it does indeed seem that smoking cannabis has no connection to Buddhism.


I was just trying to answer some of the notions that people have of a 'stoner' just sitting in the corner of the room acting retarded or just flickering through tons of images and thoughts in their head. This is not my experience in MOST cases of when i smoke. I will be smoking just shortly after my work out today so i will have to check in again to see. like i said for me it depends on where my interest is. if i a dwelling over a situation at work I may be in a state where i just simply keep thinking about that when I smoke. but most the time I am just chillen. I am also not lazy unless i want to be. I could be smoking and then suddenly start cleaning the entire house or even go to work and manage a great number of people at my job. But again i will emphasize that i am not stating this is good for some Buddhist practice.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby Motova » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:44 pm

I quit marijuana after 3 years of heavy use, though I often took breaks between 1-4 weeks. Overall it increased my ignorance, attachment and aversion. As I got more serious about my Buddhist practice I gave it the old kick. I found it next to impossible to get a decent meditation session because it made me either too lazy or excited. Moreover I found the hangover way worse than an alcohol hangover. In my opinion it's a waste of money and time. Why not spend that money/time trying to HELP sentient beings instead of getting a buzz? Finally I think it goes against everything what the Buddha taught, but I am no expert.

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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby oushi » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:57 am

seeker242 wrote:
oushi wrote:If people complain about the negative mental effects of weed use, it works like magnifying glass revealing their karma. If you have good momentum of you practice, and you know where this potential should be directed, then it can be very beneficial.

Still, you do not give sharp katana to kids that want to play knights.


I found it to interfere with the gaining of that momentum to begin with. How can you have a good momentum in your practice if you do things that interfere with the gaining of that momentum to begin with? If you know where this potential can be directed, it can be very useful but only if you actually direct it that way. If you don't, the potential just sits there being unused, essentially remaining useless.

The question I have is: What is the intention behind smoking weed to begin with? Is it to feel good? Is it to relax? Is it to try to get some kind of wisdom? All of those things can be better accomplished with just a meditation practice.

Or, is it to distract yourself from things you just don't want to deal with, like reality? Is there really any skillful intent behind smoking weed? I can't find one. I think if you examine it carefully, you find the intent arises out of grasping and clinging and that's it.

It seems that you answered all you questions, while not knowing what is actually happening to you while you are intoxicated. This unknowing creates chaos and desire to run into something easy like TV, or computer gaming.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby seeker242 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:42 pm

oushi wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
oushi wrote:If people complain about the negative mental effects of weed use, it works like magnifying glass revealing their karma. If you have good momentum of you practice, and you know where this potential should be directed, then it can be very beneficial.

Still, you do not give sharp katana to kids that want to play knights.


I found it to interfere with the gaining of that momentum to begin with. How can you have a good momentum in your practice if you do things that interfere with the gaining of that momentum to begin with? If you know where this potential can be directed, it can be very useful but only if you actually direct it that way. If you don't, the potential just sits there being unused, essentially remaining useless.

The question I have is: What is the intention behind smoking weed to begin with? Is it to feel good? Is it to relax? Is it to try to get some kind of wisdom? All of those things can be better accomplished with just a meditation practice.

Or, is it to distract yourself from things you just don't want to deal with, like reality? Is there really any skillful intent behind smoking weed? I can't find one. I think if you examine it carefully, you find the intent arises out of grasping and clinging and that's it.

It seems that you answered all you questions, while not knowing what is actually happening to you while you are intoxicated. This unknowing creates chaos and desire to run into something easy like TV, or computer gaming.


Yes, I answered them 20 years ago when I stopped smoking the weed. :tongue:

This unknowing creates chaos and desire to run into something easy like TV, or computer gaming.


I would also add that this unknowing is what causes one to seek out some intoxicating substance to begin with. I personally can't see any other reason for seeking it out, purchasing it, etc.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby oushi » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:03 pm

Yes, I answered them 20 years ago when I stopped smoking the weed. :tongue:

Sure... and you keep on playing those video games from early 90's... certainly a no-brainer to smoke weed and play Tetris. This stuff is certainly not for you. You found weed interfering with gaining momentum, but you were unable to see how playing games and watching TV blocked it totally. Weed properly used would make you drop those heavy karma generators, but you couldn't resist Mario Bros on weed.... :lol:
I personally can't see any other reason for seeking it out, purchasing it, etc.

Yes, that was obvious from you previous posts. I will not even try to explain to you what those other reasons are.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby seeker242 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:20 pm

oushi wrote:Weed properly used would make you drop those heavy karma generators, but you couldn't resist Mario Bros on weed.... :lol:


There is no such thing as "weed properly used" in the context of Buddhist cultivation! You don't see any Buddhist monks lighting up a joint before their morning meditations! You don't see any Buddhist teacher saying "Hey, you should try smoking some weed!"

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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby oushi » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:34 pm

seeker242 wrote:
oushi wrote:Weed properly used would make you drop those heavy karma generators, but you couldn't resist Mario Bros on weed.... :lol:


There is no such thing as "weed properly used" in the context of Buddhist cultivation! You don't see any Buddhist monks lighting up a joint before their morning meditations! You don't see any Buddhist teacher saying "Hey, you should try smoking some weed!"

:namaste:

There is no such thing as playing video games and watching TV in a Buddhist cultivation, and many other things you do every day.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:11 pm

oushi wrote:If people complain about the negative mental effects of weed use, it works like magnifying glass revealing their karma. If you have good momentum of you practice, and you know where this potential should be directed, then it can be very beneficial.
If you have good momentum of practice you will find that there is absolutely no reason to smoke marijuana. Smoking weed does not work like a magnifying glass revealing their karma, smoking weed is just another way to distract oneself through pointless experiences. It has no applications in Buddhist mediative techniques and is not recommended by any Buddhist teachers as an aid to practice.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby flavio81 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Smoking weed does not work like a magnifying glass revealing their karma, smoking weed is just another way to distract oneself through pointless experiences. It has no applications in Buddhist mediative techniques and is not recommended by any Buddhist teachers as an aid to practice.


:thumbsup:
As much as i have found weed pleasant and calming in the past, i must agree 100% with this.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby Ayu » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:20 pm

I know somebody who got a psychosis by using marihuana, LSD and meditation in the same time. It harmed her mind seriously and it took her two years to recover.
She found out: if you want to use weed, smoke. If you want to do meditation, meditate. But NEVER mix it together. It is like taking milk and orange juice at the same time.
No benefit.
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby corrine » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:21 pm

As a teenager in the sixties, I smoked just about anything. And it was fun, for the most part. But, like all other such distractions, it was just that. A distraction from the realities of life. While we thought we were have all sorts of miraculous insights, we were really just high as kites. For me, personally, it was not as destructive as alcohol, because alcohol made me physically ill, but still it was just about messing with my mind for pleasure. Heck, we used to 'see' all sorts of things. We were sure that our comprehension of the universe was being enhanced. That is all just bull. As an adult, one has to be honest about all of the dumb things that we did and maybe still do and our motivations for same. We smoke marijuana and drop acid and drink alcohol, because it is an escape from real life and, for the most part, fun. No great insights. Just fun.

So if we are going to indulge, shouldn't we just be honest about it? We smoke cause it is fun. Same reason we eat badly, drink til we cannot stand up and fool around sexually. Simple self indulgence. Hopefully, as we mature, we look at our actions openly and honestly and make decisions based on reality, not self delusion. I apologize if anyone feels offended, but I think we need to be honest about our vices.

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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby oushi » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:05 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:If you have good momentum of practice you will find that there is absolutely no reason to smoke marijuana. Smoking weed does not work like a magnifying glass revealing their karma, smoking weed is just another way to distract oneself through pointless experiences.

For you it certainly is...
I don't recommend weed to anyone that says that he "used to (grow and) smoke, drink lots (hell, my family owned an ouzo distillery), pop any pill that crossed my path, trip, snort, you name it.". Stay away from anything that alters your consciousness!

Sorry, but you do not look like a trustworthy person in this area.

corrine wrote:So if we are going to indulge, shouldn't we just be honest about it? We smoke cause it is fun. Same reason we eat badly, drink til we cannot stand up and fool around sexually. Simple self indulgence. Hopefully, as we mature, we look at our actions openly and honestly and make decisions based on reality, not self delusion. I apologize if anyone feels offended, but I think we need to be honest about our vices.

One cannot apply his experience with some substances to anyone around. This is simply a way to explain ones failure. "If I failed, then everyone failed". No, it doesn't work like that.
I do not use weed because it is fun. I do not do it with others. I eat properly, I do not drink (even coffee), I do not fool around sexually. I am a decent member of society, working hard to provide everything needed for my relatives. I have no dark paged in my past, I was always responsible and never harmed anyone by my actions. I prepared for the use of psychedelics for years, building up knowledge, firm conscience and stable conditions. I do not use it often, because it brings so many thing to my awareness that it takes weeks to sort them out. Things I was simply not aware before in my daily life. Things that caused stress and suffering.

Now will you correct you view replacing "we" with "I", so it is truly honest? Or will you try to convince me that my experience is not valid just because you failed?
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Re: Marihuana and meditation

Postby seeker242 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:30 pm

oushi wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
oushi wrote:Weed properly used would make you drop those heavy karma generators, but you couldn't resist Mario Bros on weed.... :lol:


There is no such thing as "weed properly used" in the context of Buddhist cultivation! You don't see any Buddhist monks lighting up a joint before their morning meditations! You don't see any Buddhist teacher saying "Hey, you should try smoking some weed!"

:namaste:

There is no such thing as playing video games and watching TV in a Buddhist cultivation, and many other things you do every day.


Which is why I don't play video games and hardly ever watch TV. As for the many other things, of course they are. Practice is not limited to just sitting on a cushion. People who think they can get something beneficial from smoking weed, are deluding themselves. But of course, people who like smoking it will disagree with that, as they always do. That is fine. Following the precepts is voluntary anyway.
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