Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

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Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby Sherlock » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:33 pm

I hope I am not creating a conceptual prison for myself.

It seems to me, based on statements here and there as well as teachings I have received, that basically all the different methods in sutra and tantra, from a Dzogchen perspetive, lead to the same goal -- realization of kadag. Some may be faster or slower than others, but they all lead to kadag. Chan practice, all the many practices of the tantric two stages, yantra yoga, even guruyoga.

The only ways to achieve lhundrub are apparently longde or thogal (or yangti)? It is apparently possible just through guruyoga, but it will be much, much slower than through the former two? What about kor zhi and spyi ti? Are the transmissions for those cycles and yangti given and practised very much, to your knowledge, in the present?
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:29 pm

Per Malcolm, with tregchö etc., you can realize ka dag, but with thögal it's possible to realize ka dag chen po, which is non-dual ka dag and lhun grub.
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby alpha » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:53 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:Per Malcolm, with tregchö etc., you can realize ka dag, but with thögal it's possible to realize ka dag chen po, which is non-dual ka dag and lhun grub.


How about longde?
There were lots of practitioners in the past who achieved the rainbow body by practicing longde alone.And that means perfecting lhundrup.
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:49 pm

alpha wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Per Malcolm, with tregchö etc., you can realize ka dag, but with thögal it's possible to realize ka dag chen po, which is non-dual ka dag and lhun grub.


How about longde?
There were lots of practitioners in the past who achieved the rainbow body by practicing longde alone.And that means perfecting lhundrup.


Seems to be the case, ChNN has said quite a few times that achieving rainbow body via Longde is possible. The eradication of 'coarse obscurations' however is something which has been mentioned before, that in practicing tregchö alone (without thögal etc.) there are coarse obscurations which will not have been resolved prior to realizing emptiness [ka dag]. So the realization isn't as 'pure' as the ka dag chen po realized with the tregchö-thögal combination. Not sure if Longde is or isn't able to purify those obscurations to the degree that thögal can, but I'm speculating at this point.

Q: then the Third Vision of Thogal realization of emptiness is not superior to the two-fold emptiness realized upon realization of Kadag at trekchod?

Malcolm wrote:
The answer to your question is no, it is not superior. The third vision is basically the equivalent of the first bhumi in the sutra system. 

However, in tregchö one does not eradicated the coarse obscurations prior to realization of emptiness.
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby alpha » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:15 pm

The impression i get is that in general people are very much interested in thogal while they overlook the fact that longde also can take you all the way.
However , i think that in reality the realization through longde might take longer than through the practice of thogal.
But it also looks much simpler as a method when comparing it to thogal at least in the way CNNr teaches it.Having said that ,all the accounts i've read of masters who achieved complete exhaustion of phenomena they all did it via thogal.I only know one or two accounts of people from the very distant past who achieved realisation through longde but not much else.Maybe i haven't read the right accounts 8-)
So i wonder if this has always been the case in that practitioners are not that much interested in longde and they rather prefer to go for the glamour of thogal .
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby flavio81 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:51 am

Sherlock wrote:The only ways to achieve lhundrub are apparently longde or thogal (or yangti)? It is apparently possible just through guruyoga, but it will be much, much slower than through the former two?


Well, on the Supreme Source (book by ChNN) you can also infer that in the past, superlative masters (i'm talking Padmasambhava / Yeshe Tsogyal - level), were able to realize just by listening a four-line explanation of the natural state, so i would GUESS that the answer is:

It depends on the capacity and conditions of the person...

asunthatneversets wrote:
alpha wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:Per Malcolm, with tregchö etc., you can realize ka dag, but with thögal it's possible to realize ka dag chen po, which is non-dual ka dag and lhun grub.


How about longde?
There were lots of practitioners in the past who achieved the rainbow body by practicing longde alone.And that means perfecting lhundrup.


Seems to be the case, ChNN has said quite a few times that achieving rainbow body via Longde is possible.


YES, but (note -- I don't know if we're really allowed to mention and comment on these practices on an open forum) when i was at a longde retreat with ChNN he explained that after some period of time apparently no one attained rainbow body through longde practices, and that he does not know the exact reason, mentioning "perhaps there was a problem with the transmission (of the practice through time)".

As i understood it (and i may be wrong!), longde practice was taught by him to be sure practicioners are "not remaining in doubt" (2nd Garab Dorje testament: having certainty of the natural state)
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby oberon_rex » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:43 am

I get a bit confused. I have heard ChNN at some times say that Longde can be a vehicle to realise the rainbow body.
But at other times (more recently) he has said that Longde is used to resolve doubt (i.e. GD's second statement) and then it can be let go.

These aren't necessarily mutually exclusive statements, I guess.
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby flavio81 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:31 am

oberon_rex wrote:I get a bit confused. I have heard ChNN at some times say that Longde can be a vehicle to realise the rainbow body.
But at other times (more recently) he has said that Longde is used to resolve doubt (i.e. GD's second statement) and then it can be let go.

These aren't necessarily mutually exclusive statements, I guess.


Exactly, they're not mutually exclusive. Rejoice, Oberon!! Long life to the Master, who, in his vast compassion, gives us many methods and lungs!!

:namaste:
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby WmBainbridge » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:08 am

On good authority, one can realize lhundrup while extracting the oil of sesame seeds for prostitutes. It isn't really subject to a proprietary method. According to ChNNR, as attested to by his student Jim Valby, Longde and Thögal are independent paths, either of which can lead to rainbow body, which is not precisely the same thing as lhundrub.
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby Dronma » Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:03 pm

WmBainbridge wrote:On good authority, one can realize lhundrup while extracting the oil of sesame seeds for prostitutes. It isn't really subject to a proprietary method. According to ChNNR, as attested to by his student Jim Valby, Longde and Thögal are independent paths, either of which can lead to rainbow body, which is not precisely the same thing as lhundrub.


Thank you for this info.
It is how I understand it also.
Moreover, the complete realization is kadag and lhundrub together, without separation.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby heart » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:28 pm

Dronma wrote:
WmBainbridge wrote:On good authority, one can realize lhundrup while extracting the oil of sesame seeds for prostitutes. It isn't really subject to a proprietary method. According to ChNNR, as attested to by his student Jim Valby, Longde and Thögal are independent paths, either of which can lead to rainbow body, which is not precisely the same thing as lhundrub.


Thank you for this info.
It is how I understand it also.
Moreover, the complete realization is kadag and lhundrub together, without separation.


Yes, they are inseparable, not different goals.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Only way to realise Lhundrub is longde or thogal?

Postby oldbob » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:01 pm

heart wrote:
Dronma wrote:
WmBainbridge wrote:On good authority, one can realize lhundrup while extracting the oil of sesame seeds for prostitutes. It isn't really subject to a proprietary method. According to ChNNR, as attested to by his student Jim Valby, Longde and Thögal are independent paths, either of which can lead to rainbow body, which is not precisely the same thing as lhundrub.


Thank you for this info.
It is how I understand it also.
Moreover, the complete realization is kadag and lhundrub together, without separation.


Yes, they are inseparable, not different goals.

/magnus


heart wrote:
Dronma wrote:
WmBainbridge wrote:On good authority, one can realize lhundrup while extracting the oil of sesame seeds for prostitutes. It isn't really subject to a proprietary method. According to ChNNR, as attested to by his student Jim Valby, Longde and Thögal are independent paths, either of which can lead to rainbow body, which is not precisely the same thing as lhundrub.


Thank you for this info.
It is how I understand it also.
Moreover, the complete realization is kadag and lhundrub together, without separation.


Yes, they are inseparable, not different goals.

/magnus


:namaste:

:good:

All excellent posts! :twothumbsup:

my 2 cents.

Using foreign terms is confusing for a simple mind like mine. I have a hard enough time understanding what is meant by common English. So once defined I will stick to English. So I will assume here that what we are talking about here are the concepts of Kadak, "pure from the beginning" and Lhundrup, "spontaneously arising, which are usually mentioned together."

Magnus is precise in pointing out that these are two inseparable aspects of the same thing. You can call this the state of "instant presence." Pure from the beginning, means that all phenomena are empty of self nature - but this is just a concept. Spontaneously arising means that whatever arises in your continuum appears and vanishes without grasping or rejection - but this is just a concept.

In the pointing out instructions from a Dzogchen Master, we are introduced directly to the non-dual state of pure from the beginning and spontaneously arising, but there are no words to describe it, like trying to write on water or air. So we call it pure from the beginning and spontaneously arising if we want to talk about it later, but this is not the same thing as direct experience itself.

Going back to the OP question, this now redefines the question as: Only way to realize instant presence is longde or thogal.

Longde (Wylie: kLong-sde; Sanskrit: Abhyantaravarga) is the name of one of three scriptural divisions within Atiyoga, also known as Dzogchen (Wylie: rDzogs-chen) or the Great Perfection which is itself the pinnacle of the ninefold division of practice according to the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism.

The name Longde is translated as 'Space Division' or 'Space Series' of Dzogchen and emphasizes the emptiness (strong-pa) or spaciousness (klong) aspect of the Natural State.

Tögal (Tib. ཐོད་རྒལ་, Wyl. thod rgal) — one of the two aspects, along with trekchö, of Dzogchen practice[1].

Tögal, translated as ‘direct crossing’, ‘the direct approach’ or ‘leapover’, can bring very quickly the actual realization of the three kayas in this lifetime, and thus is a more rapid way of bringing about the dissolution of the practitioner’s karmic vision. The practice of tögal brings the realization of ‘spontaneous presence’ (Tib. ལྷུན་གྲུབ་, lhundrup), and it can only be undertaken by a practitioner who has first gained stability in the practice of kadak trekchö.

Longde:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longde_%28Dzogchen%29

Togal:

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=T%C3%B6gal

So the OP question then redefines as: Only way to realize instant presence is by following the "space" division of Dzogchen, or by practicing leap-over, as written of by Sogyal Rinpoche, " The tögal practitioner works directly with the clear light that dwells inherently, “spontaneously present,” within all phenomena, using specific and exceptionally powerful exercises to reveal it within himself or herself.

So with this understanding, the answer to the OP question is no.

Instant presence is found by taking the pointing out instruction of direct introduction from a Dzogchen Master. Confidence and continuation in the state of instant presence, are gained by following the three series of Dzogchen: the mind series, the space series and the secret instruction series.

Leap-over and the dark retreat, are techniques that enable realization in one life.

Guruyoga is used in the DC to mean the state of instant presence. In common usage it refers to a devotional practice of creative visualization and absorption, based on devotion to a Teacher, of historical or present time. One cannot say that Guruyoga is slower than leap-over and dark retreat. What is appropriate for each practitioner is given in the instructions from your spiritual Master.

Kor zhi is the practice of the 100 peaceful and wrathful deities and is usually used to help a dead person, but can also be practiced as a creative visualization and absorption practice, by itself.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... ul_deities

Spyi ti:

spyi ti'i rnal 'byor

Chiti Yoga. One of the subdivisions of the Instruction Section of Dzogchen: Ati, Chiti and Yangti. Chiti is defined as covering the general points of Dzogchen [RY]

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/spyi ... al_%27byor

and

http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/ ... ermano/b7/

The key point of all of this blah blah, is that intellectual understandings are of absolutely no use when circumstances change.

At the time of death only your direct experiences of spiritual practice will be of any use at all.

So to answer the OP's final question, yes all these things are taught today by many Dzogchen Masters.

Find a Master and happily practice!

Whew - lots of words!

Keep the questions coming until there are no more questions and you can relax into instant presence, integrating 24/7 (in a non-dual way).

Hope this helps.

ob
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