YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Overcoming time (kappātīta) - Dhamma Wheel

Overcoming time (kappātīta)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:53 pm

Greetings,

I was just reading the Fausboll translation of the Sammaparibbajaniyasutta of the Sutta Nipata, when I read the following. I am curious to know what others make of it...

"He who has overcome time (kappātīta) in the past and the future, is of an exceedingly pure understanding, liberated from all the dwelling-places (of the mind), such a one will wander rightly in the world."

Thoughts, alternative translations etc. all welcome.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
RMSmith
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:30 pm
Location: Northern Nevada

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby RMSmith » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:58 pm

I take it to mean "letting go of the past" and "not worrying about the future". I'm assuming it frees the mind to live in the present more fully.
-----------
Rick



User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby daverupa » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:26 pm

Have we the Pali?

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:29 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:40 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:52 pm


User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1684
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:55 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:57 pm

Greetings Mike & Acinteyyo,

Thanks for the Pali.

Does it help anyone here advance further than Fausboll's old school translation?

Any parts of it that I can work out seem to accord with Fausboll's transation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

BKh
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby BKh » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:06 pm

Daily Practice with the Suttas |
Audio Sutta Recordings | Images of the Buddha across time and space

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:15 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1684
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:20 pm

In one of my german resources it is suggested that "kappa" in "kappātīta", which usually means a period of time, e.g. "Worldperiod" (sanskrit "kalpa" ) should not be understood as "time" in general. But rather like "sankappa" meaning "thought" as a synonym of "vitakka". So the german translation suggests:

"He who has overcome thoughts about past and the future ... "

rather than

"He who has overcome time (kappātīta) in the past and the future ... "

best wishes, acinteyyo

(Hi BKh, sorry but the link doesn't work)
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:25 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 3633
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby SDC » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:13 am

The past and the future are both constructions of past experiences that we arrange according to the order in which they occurred or how we imagine they will occur (the future being created by using experiences from our past arranged in alternate, somewhat unfamiliar ways as to give the impression that we have yet to experience what we are imagining. Although we know it isn't real, don't we?). When considering time and our place in it, we place our most up-to-date idea of ourselves at the transition point between these two constructs (a construct between 2 constructs). The way I see it is that all of it is a fantasy that allows the idea of self to endure. Even saying, "living in the present moment" is dangerous because you are still allowing time to have a foothold, a foothold that you will not have the ability to remove since you're looking to have a "moment" of it. I think the sutta refers to removing this type of thinking.

:smile: Just a thought.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:25 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
SDC
Posts: 3633
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby SDC » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:50 am


pulga
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby pulga » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:24 am

I don't think it is a matter of deconstructing our experience of time in order to nullify it, but rather coming to understand -- and to appreciate in a significant way -- its holistic structure. The conceit "I am" lies hidden in the immediacy of our experience, i.e. pre-reflexively, as a negative, as a determination. In reflexion it appears (pátubhavati) as a contradiction, i.e. as the self of self-awareness.

Time has the same structure: the immediate present is made up of the three ecstases: past, present, & future -- all three of a lower, more particular order. (Notice how the three ecstases are only distinguishable through reflexion.) But the immediate present itself -- in order to have any meaning at all -- is itself one of three ecstases of a higher, more general order; and so it goes in both directions. The whole structure is holistic, and has nothing to do with the Buddha's teaching of anatta. It's only when we hold to a negative, a non-manifest belief in a self, that a contradiction appears (pátubhavati) in reflexion, a contradiction that seems to transcend the holistic structure that holds the intelligiblity of experience together.

Mindfulness of the present lines up the various levels of the particular-general hierarchy on what is being perceived at any given, discernible moment, exhibiting in effect how our being-in-the-world is founded upon the contact between our senses and their corresponding sense objects, i.e. upon phassa.
Last edited by pulga on Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Viscid
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby Viscid » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:17 am

Gut reaction is to equate 'overcoming time' in this context with Krishnamurti's ending of 'psychological time.'
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby ground » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:18 am

The sense of time may be overcome through a shock like e.g. being unexpectedly beaten or being kind of rapidly "launched awake and clear" by a startle reflex on the verge of falling asleep. Both instances lack will / intention / conscious focus which seems to be crucial.

Kind regards

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:32 am


User avatar
SDC
Posts: 3633
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: Overcoming time (kappātīta)

Postby SDC » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:23 pm



Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: unspoken and 55 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine