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If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cittasanto
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:02 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

greggorious
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby greggorious » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:16 pm

But do you see what I'm saying? It seems as though people are craving good karma, and thus will create bad karma, so why make it an issue? Just go about being eithical, moral and compassionate, why worry about karma?
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

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contemplans
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby contemplans » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:20 pm

Cittasanto, whether we say it is karma or consciousness, it still does not answer the question. What binds one field of karma from another? What is wall? Or what binds one package of seeds (conciousness) from being mixed with another bag? According to Bbuddhism, when one dies their karma propels them to another life, and they will still reap in that new life as they have sown. It is not explained how this happens.

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Cittasanto
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:37 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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JeffR
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby JeffR » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:47 pm


santa100
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby santa100 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:08 pm

And Kamma could be "local" or "global". That's why there's "individual" kamma and there's "collective" kamma. Some kamma will result in some consequence just for a single individual. But there're others that a group of people will have to pay. Like the massacre of the entire Sakyans clan during the Buddha's time, tragic accidents of passengers onboard the Titanic, on commercial airplanes,...and many other instances..

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Cittasanto
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:09 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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contemplans
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby contemplans » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:42 pm


santa100
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby santa100 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:02 pm

There's no "shared" kamma in the sense that A cannot pay for what B has done. But there's "collective" kamma in the sense that if A and B both have committed the act together (or could be separate but the act has the same level of severity), then it's possible that both A and B will pay their dues together at the same time, thus the Sakyans or the Titanic incidents..

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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:17 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:49 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:40 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Buckwheat
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Buckwheat » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:55 am

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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amtross
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby amtross » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:35 am

if you give your mom a hug she will likely smile. When you see her smile you will likely feel happy. That, right there is good Kamma ripening. There does not need to be a self there to see the smile and feel happy as a result, just 5 aggregates.

creekist
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby creekist » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:26 pm


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acinteyyo
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:36 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Alvaro
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Alvaro » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:01 pm

Hello again. :tongue:
I believe i have found an answer to this topic that better suits my need for understanding.
First of all, i'd like to say that to those people who simply dismiss this subject for being irrelevant, the buddha wopuld not have answered it or just because is speculation, with all due respect, i think you are a bit mistaken.
I was simply exercising my attitude of investigation. The Buddha himself said that there should be honest investigation to his doctrine, he even names it among the seven factors of enlightenment, which i think is an attitude that corresponds only to an enlightened being. Do not accept his sayings just because he said so.
Investigate, speculate, reason about them.
In doing so, i have learned of course from what you all wrote in this thread, but i also came to notice that, effectively, rebirth and kamma accumulates within ourselves simply because we haven't realised annatta. We haven't experienced it with our deep insight, deep inderstanding, namely, Nibbana. While not cognitively and experiencially know (a knowing which is also a seeing) realise Annatta, our mental continuum keeps trapped in the illusion of self, and that illusion is what binds us to Samsara. Once the mind intrinsecally knows annatta, it pulverizes the ability of mind to trick itself into rebirth.

So, namely, this is basically what the suttas say, I'm not saying anything new here. As a matter of fact, it's quite the oppositte, and one feels almost embarrassed to find a truth that was there all along. Nevertheless, it's our way of learning. Through investigation and experimentation of the teachings.
Best regards to you all

Metta,
Alvaro

Buckwheat
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Buckwheat » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:09 pm

Interesting sankhara you have there.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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Cittasanto
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:45 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Alvaro
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Re: If there is no self, where does Kamma accumulate?

Postby Alvaro » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:00 pm

Simply said: We are in Samsara because we haven't realised annatta. We have not reached Nirvana.
We don't have a self, but we mistakenly think we do, and that's what binds us to Samsara.
If that is not the teaching of the Buddha, then i must be terribly wrong.
If so, i appreciate you tell me so. I'm only learning and trying to understand things better. Thank you


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