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How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth? - Dhamma Wheel

How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thisisanoldrule
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How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby thisisanoldrule » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:19 pm

It seems that many people come to Buddhism after tasting samvega, or through disillusionment to attachments of the world. But, to counteract samvega, we are supposed to develop pasada, or else samvega leads to despair and suicide seems like a reasonable way out of suffering.

In this day and age, despair and suicide are real and common problems for many people in society, so I would like to hear what teachings, techniques and personal experiences others have had to develop pasada, that doesn't rely on believing in rebirth and or being a skilled meditator?

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amtross
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby amtross » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:02 pm

I don't personally know of any "beliefs" (such as rebirth) in buddhism or elsewhere that will help much but there are many practices in Buddhism that can lead to more calm in your life:
Do any of these regularly:
1. Reciting Suttas
2. Chanting
3. Being mindful: here's two methods for maintaining mindfulness in your daily life (off the cussion).
http://sayadawutejaniya.org/wp-content/ ... Enough.pdf
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/livngmed.pdf

4. Sitting, you don't need to be a meditation master to see benifits.
5. Dana (generosity)
6. Metta (loving kindness)
7. Sila (virtue)

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Zom
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby Zom » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:28 pm

Why do you need to cultivate anything, if, according to your view, everyone will end up the same and quite soon? ,)

perkele
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby perkele » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:09 pm


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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby David2 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:28 pm


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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby Zom » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:42 pm

"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.

"With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'If there is no next world, then — with the breakup of the body, after death — this venerable person has made himself safe. But if there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the breakup of the body, after death — will reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable contemplatives & brahmans, this venerable person is still criticized in the here-&-now by the observant as a person of bad habits & wrong view: one who holds to a doctrine of non-existence.' If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a bad throw twice: in that he is criticized by the observant here-&-now, and in that — with the breakup of the body, after death — he will reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when poorly grasped & poorly adopted by him, covers (only) one side, and leaves behind the possibility of the skillful.

.

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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:02 pm

I tend to not engage the idea because I have no basis for anything but pure speculation on it. But to be honest, I can't help but feel like no rebirth is more likely, and so my actions and thoughts are conditioned by that perceived likelihood, for better or worse. I realize that this is my conditioned view and it may yet change, I can't say.

Anyway, from that perspective, I think there is still plenty of good to be gotten in this life from pursuing the path. Even if one doesn't reach arahantship, there is still a whole lot of dukkha that can be overcome, and a lot of positive influence one could have on the world around them.

And if there is rebirth, what better way to prepare for it than with good practice here and now?

So I try to do that.

vinasp
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:53 pm

Hi everyone,

Quote: "Because there actually is the next world ..."

This is misleading. You have to remember that "loka" (world) is often used
to refer to a state of mind. So it is only saying that there is another state
of mind beyond the present - unenlightened - one.

Regards, Vincent.

perkele
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby perkele » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:40 pm


vinasp
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:57 pm

Hi perkele,

In the Sutta Pitaka we often find "loka" (world) used instead of suffering.
This strongly suggests that a state of mind is meant. An example:

One frequently finds: Suffering, the arising of suffering, the cessation
of suffering, and the path which leads to the cessation of suffering.

Also found is; The world, the arising of the world, the cessation of the
world, and the path which leads to the cessation of the world.

This invites us to regard these as equivalent, and understand "world" as
just the unenlightened state of mind.

In the Dependent Origination formula the words at the end: "and so arises
this whole mass of suffering," are sometimes replaced with: "and so
arises the world," and the same for cessation.

Another well known passage:

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II.48 Rohitassa (pali text) translated by Nanananda in Concept and Reality page 83.

AN 4.45 Link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Regards, Vincent.

thisisanoldrule
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby thisisanoldrule » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:22 am


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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:23 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

thisisanoldrule
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby thisisanoldrule » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:22 am


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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby ground » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:06 am


nowheat
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby nowheat » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:16 am


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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:22 am

Greetings,

Whilst I'm happy to provisionally accept some variety of post-mortem continuation, nowheat's "Whichever is the case, there is still suffering, birth, aging, and death. Right now that is happening for me, and for you." is my motivation. Whether it be 1 lifetime or 1 kappa, whilst there is "existence", there will be dukkha. So let's work at eradicating it, yeah?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:13 am

:goodpost:


For me, I see both belief and disbelief as frivolousness.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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kirk5a
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:23 pm

The trouble with this question is it suggests someone believes rebirth is NOT true. A view like that clashes with the teachings. As was pointed out in the quotation above, someone who recognizes they don't know, and therefore allows for the possibility, can be in harmony with the teachings. So I'd say that view has to be examined first.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:16 pm

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

perkele
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Re: How to cultivate pasada if you *don't* believe in rebirth?

Postby perkele » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:52 pm



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