the great vegetarian debate

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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Ramon1920 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:19 am

Sugar. Lots of sugar.
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Zhen Li » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:04 am

How do you know if you are too skinny? And also, why is it bad to be too skinny?

People often tell me I look very thin, but I never really felt like I am, it could just be my face shape. My BMI is usually always 22.
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby flavio81 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:07 pm

Ramon1920 wrote:Sugar. Lots of sugar.


That's not good for the body. Not good at all. Plus sugar can create an actual sugar-addiction cycle inside the body.
If this is a virtual sangha, do we achieve virtualization instead of realization?
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Luke » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:00 pm

TaTa wrote:I need to gain some weight!!! HELP!!!! =P

Just do the opposite good dieting advice! This means eating a lot of starchy carbs (bread, pasta, rice, etc.) and a lot of calories in general at night, because you are less likely to burn calories which you consume at night. And corn and carrots are the starchiest vegetables and act very much like starchy carbs.

Try eating a large serving of fried potatoes with corn, beans, and eggs followed by ice cream before going to bed. This should do it! lol

Also, to gain weight, choose refined carbs, such as white rice and ordinary pasta (not wheat pasta). Also, a lot of so-called "health foods" which are made with granola are not very healthy and are full of calories, such as granola cereals and granola bars which are in reality full of fat and sugar.

And try lifting weights, especially barbell squats. After I had been doing barbell squats 3 times a week for a month (in addition to other exercises) and drinking lots of milk, I gained 3 kg! And this was back when I was still a vegatarian!

I never tried this exact routine, but it's famous for rapid weight gain!
http://oldschooltrainer.com/super-squat ... -reloaded/
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Monsoon » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:06 am

TaTa wrote:I need to gain some weight!!!


It might be useful if you told us how tall you are, your current weight, your general body shape and your goals regarding weight gain. Wouldn't be much fun to gain 3kg and have it all sitting in one place!

Overall though it is a simple input/output scenario. Estimate how many calories you use in a day (rough estimate obviously) and eat a bit more than that. Don't overdo it.
Let peace reign!

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ex-vegans

Postby greentara » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:52 am

Will Pavia from The Times




'THE Koran condemns those who abandon their faith and Dante envisioned a circle of Hell where apostates would writhe in agony.


For ex-vegans, there is now a website that seeks to shame them for straying from the path of soya milk and tasting the forbidden fruit, or rather the forbidden meat, eggs and dairy products.

The authors behind the Vegan Sellout List promise to name "all those who have regressed from moral consistency to moral depravity". They ask vegans across America to submit names, locations and photographs of former vegans to be published in an online database"
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby jeeprs » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:42 am

It is interesting how many forms fanaticism can assume. But then, animal liberationists have sometimes shown no compunction about death or injury to humans.

Being Australian I grew up eating meat. I have gone through vegetarian 'periods' but as I am so accustomed to meat, it doesn't strike me as revolting or unnatural to eat it from time to time. BUT, I cook and eat a lot of vegetarian meals, and frequently order the vegetarian options in restaraunts and on flights. OK it is not super-consistent but over the years you can greatly reduce meat consumption that way WITHOUT being fanatical about it.
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:55 am

That site is most likely a joke.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby seeker242 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:40 am

dzogchungpa wrote:That site is most likely a joke.


It's interesting that the home page of the domain now is pointing to a PETA video "meat your meat" on a separate documentary website, rather than their own website. This was probably the intention the whole time.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby seeker242 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:50 pm

Confirmation that it was a hoax.

"How I baited the media into showing slaughterhouse footage to over 200,000 people." http://www.animalliberationfrontline.co ... 00-people/
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:46 pm

I'm reminded of the words of one of my mentors who was a psychotherapist..
" Be careful when dealing with aggressive people, and in particular always make sure that when dealing with vegans that there is nothing between you and the door "..
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Jainarayan » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:48 pm

Can we expect fatwas to be issued? Image
Worthy, wise and virtuous: Who is energetic and not indolent, in misfortune unshaken,
flawless in manner and intelligent, such one will honor gain. - Digha Nikaya III 273
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby flavio81 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:18 pm

Simon E. wrote:I'm reminded of the words of one of my mentors who was a psychotherapist..
" Be careful when dealing with aggressive people, and in particular always make sure that when dealing with vegans that there is nothing between you and the door "..


:rolling:
Excellent piece of advice!!
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:21 pm

flavio81 wrote:
Simon E. wrote:I'm reminded of the words of one of my mentors who was a psychotherapist..
" Be careful when dealing with aggressive people, and in particular always make sure that when dealing with vegans that there is nothing between you and the door "..


:rolling:
Excellent piece of advice!!

Its advice that has stood me in good stead over the years. :smile:
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby seeker242 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:10 pm

Jainarayan wrote:Can we expect fatwas to be issued? Image


If you know anything of the group called "Animal Liberation Front", they were issued decades ago! This is the group that breaks into research labs, steals the animals and sets fire to the building, etc.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Kim O'Hara » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Simon E. wrote:I'm reminded of the words of one of my mentors who was a psychotherapist..
" Be careful when dealing with aggressive people, and in particular always make sure that when dealing with vegans that there is nothing between you and the door "..

Typo alert: didn't you mean Vogons, not vegans?

:tongue:
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:09 pm

Haha, that is so great! I have tried to get so many meat-eaters to watch the hardcore documentary Earthlings that just simply shows what humans to do animals in so called research butcherings, to farm them for fur, to farm them for meat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19eBAfUFK3E
http://vimeo.com/1753971

As that documentary says if animals think of humans, they probably think of us as the devil, because no one gives a shit. And when someone does and tries to become a vegan, they get flack and made fun of. I love this quote:
Gretchen Wyler wrote:We must not refuse to see with our eyes what they must endure with their bodies.


I have tried to get so many meat-eaters to just watch Earthlings. I almost succeeded once with this friend who thought it would be so easy. Less than 10 minutes into it he was begging to turn off the tv. So all these people that are eating meat, they cannot even bear to watch on a screen for little over an hour and actually witness the suffering their lazy, gluttonous habits create a demand for. Infact I have become so confident I have challenged my friends and family that if they watch it from beginning to end(in my presence) I will eat one meal of meat if they provide or pay for it. Even if they go through with it to the end, which I doubt, it will be impossible for them to live the same ever after. Personally I couldn't watch it, it makes all horror movies seem a pale joke. So once I brought the laptop to the bathroom when I took a shower and listened to the audio and I still felt horrible for a week after, that humans are so wicked and callous, that no one cares, and that I cannot do anything(outside becoming a sacred sacrifice and ending up in jail).

Anyway, it is great that these vegans tricked some meat eaters into watching perhaps a few seconds of Meet your Meatbefore they closed the browser tab. No one deserves to have this stupid consumer choice ideology or right whereby they have entitlement to create the conditions for animals to bear with their bodies for their entire lives unspeakable suffering of such magnitude that the selfish consumer cannot even bear to witness himself. That is probably the evil pinnacle of modern humanity and our selfishness and brutality, a Holocaust of animals all day, everyday and the people of the Animal Liberation Front, the only ones who dare risk their cushy first world existence to stop it at the risk of lengthy prison terms, are considered the largest domestic terror threat in the USA, above even Al-Qaeda...
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Roland » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:59 pm

The scene in Earthlings with the "cow killing machine" I will never forget.

I BARELY made it through that movie. 4 times or something I wanted to turn it off but forced myself not to.

The most brutal thing I've seen and I previously thought I had seen some violent, horrible things.
"Seek truth in meditation, not moldy books. Look in the sky to find the moon, not in the pond."
- Persian proverb
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Ramon1920 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:55 am

I guess I would qualify for that list since I was strong armed by some people into being vegan until I started becoming medically sick from it.

I find veganism to be a fad revolving around *special* identity in general. Some vegans, they will make sure you know they are vegan, have such large identity issues that it becomes really oppressive to be around them. They tend to say it's about the animals or health to justify their "in your face" harassment and douchebaggery, but it's just another "counter-culture" to them.

Of the vegans I've known, only one comes to mind that is still "vegan". She has been living with her parents, early 20's, blogging about veganism and animal cruelty, without work or school, for almost 2 years now. She happens to have a neglected dog. I would call the city to have the dog taken away but I suspect they would put it down. It's feet seem to be permanently crippled by not having the nails trimmed and it has cysts and infections all over and reeks of urine from not being bathed for who knows how long. This particular vegan also wears custom print clothing with animal rights slogans, has vegan bumper stickers and fliers, chews out people at restaurants for not having a "vegan menu", and very loudly makes noises of disgust when people eat non vegan food around her. I've seen her go into a full hysterical fit at social functions twice, I am not sure if she was even invited, but this happens when you have a wide circle of friends.

Obviously the one I've told a story about is crazy, but to a lesser degree many other people I've known that were "vegan" at the time did the same or similar things.

Veganism is one fad I will be glad to see go away. I think it's becoming less appealing already. I'm certainly sick of it already.
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Thrasymachus » Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:23 am

Ramon1920 wrote:I guess I would qualify for that list since I was strong armed by some people into being vegan until I started becoming medically sick from it.


This is good that you worded it this way, as it displays clearly your extreme bias and hyperbole on the level of fiction. So are you some minor whose parents, sic FORCED you to become vegan? Instead I assume you are an adult who, seeking to malign veganism is trying to portray that someone twisted your arm to make you vegan. NOTE: IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTICE IN OUR CONSUMER SOCIETY, IT IS MISTAKENLY BELIEVED THAT THE FIRST WORLD CONSUMER HAS A CONSUMER RIGHT TO EAT MEAT AND THAT HYPOTHETICALLY VEGANS CAN SAY FORCE PEOPLE, LIKE THEIR KIDS TO NOT EAT MEAT. THIS IS GROSS MISDIRECTION OF REALITY AND EXTREME ANTHROPOCENTRISM. THE PARTY BEING COERCED ARE THE FARMED ANIMALS WHO ARE FORCED TO GIVE UP THE SUM TOTAL OF THEIR LIVES FOR YOUR TASTE PREFERENCES AND PROFIT MOTIVE. CONSUMERS ARE GIVEN A FREE REIGN AS THEY PASSIVELY AGGRESSIVE HELP TO CREATE DEMAND FOR AND BENEFIT FROM THE EXPLOITATION OF ANIMALS AND TO A LESSER EXTENT THE POOR OF THEIR NATION AND THE POOR OF THE THIRD WORLD, WHOSE ALIENATED LABOR IS THE ONLY THINK THAT ALLOWS THEIR LAVISH LIFESTYLE. NEW FLASH: YOU ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE WORLD, OTHERS DON'T DESERVE TO SUFFER FOR YOUR BENEFIT, SO YOU CAN HAVE AIR CONDITIONING AND MEAT IN THE FRIDE. FULL STOP.

Veganism is a fad the same way that abolitionism was a fad to the racist white planter society of the Southern United States which depended on slave labor. Either veganism succeeds or humanity fails. People like you don't want to live in reality. In our society there is a term the real world which paradoxically actually refers to fictional world of financial markets, money, alienating jobs people don't want to work, etc. This creates a nice bifurcation that allows us to wage a total war against the actually existing real world consisting of dirt, micro-organism and all the insects, plants and animals. The more farmed meat you eat, the more of the real world you destroy, because it is the most wasteful way to get calories -- period. Now I fully expect the selfish humans using their consumer choice mentality that you are a good exemplar of to eat meat until the aquifers are depleted(the Ogalla the largest aquifer in the USA is running drydue to farming feeder crops for animals, the Hoover Dam in a few years will be so low that it can no longer generate power and eventually their will be water rationing), the rivers run dry(the Colorado River no long runs into the Gulf of Mexico), till the waterways are totally polluted with animal feces(human feces which is smaller in tonnage has to be treated, animal waste from farming, doesn't...), run-off from pesticides, etc. If veganism fails, life on earth does to. People will have to consume less and actually give a shit.

As to your claims of health problems, most chronic health problems like cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, heart disease, irritable bowel, glaucoma can be prevented or reversed with a plant based vegan diet. There actually good doctors out there like Dr. McDougall, Dr. Joel Fuhrman, Dr. Caldwell Caldwell Esselstyn, Dr. Klaper, etc., that actually cure and reverse diseases with a medically supervised plant diet. The best of so called science and chemical engineering on the other hand results in huge costs and allowing people to continue their poor lifestyle with the false feedback of pills that will for example artificially lower cholesterol, but they won't stop the endothelial damage in the arteries from continuing to consume animal products. Case in point a recent study showed that Americans are living longer, but the number of years they are disabled or in ill health is increasing. Eating meat does not only waste natural resources and the real world, it wastes human lives also. It is widely known that caretakers often die sooner than those they medically caretake. Just because you want to put whatever in your mouth, doesn't mean just animals suffer, no one wants to change someone else's diapers because they decided to not exercise and eat pork for decades with the false feedback of statin drugs, instead of actually lowering their cholesterol and high blood pressure by avoiding animal products. Not to mention this paradigm leads to financial collapse. In Greece with its debt crisis used to sell of the country to a resurgent Fourth Reich led by Merkel, hospitals, patients and doctors all cannot afford the current medical paradigm of poor lifestyle, masked by pills till surgery is needed. It is too expensive and it is not a solid state system like avoiding the problem at the source is. In the USA half of Americans will be diabetic or prediabetic as early as 2020. Literally meat eating can financially cripple societies.

As to your allegations of rude vegans, again it most likely hyperbole or an outright lie just like when you tried to portray you were "strong armed" into being vegan. As someone who also used to be car-free and bicycle everywhere, I can confirm 100% that the more thoughtful you are in your lifestyle, the ruder people will be. If you decide to ride a bike people will rudely honk at you to get off the road, the youth will scream to startle you as they drive past, motorists will callously splash you if its raining and you are not vigilant enough, they will blind you with their high beam at night, etc. It is the same with veganism, if you are vegan you will be constantly made fun of and mocked. People know what they are doing. They know on some beneath the surface level that they are driving around in over one-ton land tanks only to carry themselves around most the time and the average male only weighs about 200 pounds(in my country), they know that they cannot bear witness with their eyes to what factory farmed animals have to live through, they know most the products they buy are produced by super-exploited labor in the third world where armed guards on patrol. Thus veganism is an attack on their opulent that they don't inherently deserve or have a right to, so they attack vegans. You cannot displace this with made up anecdotes to contribute to lame anti-vegan vitriol.

Either humanity will have to give a shit, real fast, or the whole world will be like a war-zone in the battle of consuming the world. The vegan movement is one of the only ways to drastically set alot of things right. If people care enough animals to not eat them, they will also care about the colonized humans enough to not exploit them. If you give the least powerful beings respect you give every human more respect, giving to the weakest raises the level for all boats. Instead people just want: "me, mine" and to consume. As long as they are comfortable in 24/7 air conditioning, as long as they have a massive car to carry around a few pounds of human flesh, as long as they can eat whatever they want no matter how many animals die, and they have insurance or the government paying for the pills they will need when they age, most won't care. This is what we have, we can see the results and they are not pretty. If veganism is really a fad, there is no hope for humanity or the world either.
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