Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:21 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:05 pm 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: Olympia WA
Will wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
Another example that the first refuge of Islam is violence. Religion of peace, my ass.


i guess you don't read the news much:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asi ... story.html


Start around 600 CE by counting & comparing Buddhist vs Muslim violence - see which group has the pattern of violence against those outside their religion.


So what? Seriously, if Muslims really are more violent than other religions, what do you propose to do with that information? What conclusion can be drawn from that, that Muslims have more ticks in the category of "bad" than others? And as compared to who? Buddhists, Western governments, Christians...or what? Seems like a pointless exercise to me - if such a definitive pattern exists much more than Muslims than with others, what do you think we should do about that, particularly as Buddhists?

_________________
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm
Posts: 972
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
So what? Seriously, if Muslims really are more violent than other religions, what do you propose to do with that information? What conclusion can be drawn from that, that Muslims have more ticks in the category of "bad" than others? And as compared to who? Buddhists, Western governments, Christians...or what? Seems like a pointless exercise to me - if such a definitive pattern exists much more than Muslims than with others, what do you think we should do about that, particularly as Buddhists?


Well for one thing we can knock off the pluralistic nonsense that all religions are somehow equivalent in means and methods. This flies in the face of the simple facts. When was the last Buddhist suicide bombing? If Buddhists set off nine bombs in the Kaaba, what do you think the response from the Muslims of the world would be? Any sane person can see that the modern expansive form of Islam is on a collision course with basically all other faiths on the planet.

Since the collapse of the caliphate of Cordoba, there has not been a truly tolerant Islamic culture. We need to be able to call a spade a spade. Within the body politic of our respective countries we can work to ensure that immigration policies favor those applicants that can fully integrate into modern culture. This doesn't mean a ban on all Muslim immigration, but it really should include a ban on Islamic fundamentalism. It is hateful towards women, violent towards non-believers and leads to island communities of medieval cultures in otherwise modern societies. That there are other elements of misogyny and intolerance in our culture does not argue for importing new ones.

_________________
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:34 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:53 pm
Posts: 860
all religions are potential mental straitjackets for the retarded, unfortunately facilitating the acting out of their retardation.

_________________
Thoroughly tame your own mind.
This is (possibly) the teaching of Buddha.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Posts: 1952
gad rgyangs wrote:
all religions are potential mental straitjackets for the retarded, unfortunately facilitating the acting out of their retardation.


All people are potentially monsters or buddhas. So it is jail or worse for the monsters and reverence for the exemplar buddhas.

_________________
Only consider helping others and forget yourself. Master Hsuan Hua


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:46 pm 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: Olympia WA
Karma Dorje wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
So what? Seriously, if Muslims really are more violent than other religions, what do you propose to do with that information? What conclusion can be drawn from that, that Muslims have more ticks in the category of "bad" than others? And as compared to who? Buddhists, Western governments, Christians...or what? Seems like a pointless exercise to me - if such a definitive pattern exists much more than Muslims than with others, what do you think we should do about that, particularly as Buddhists?


Well for one thing we can knock off the pluralistic nonsense that all religions are somehow equivalent in means and methods. This flies in the face of the simple facts. When was the last Buddhist suicide bombing? If Buddhists set off nine bombs in the Kaaba, what do you think the response from the Muslims of the world would be? Any sane person can see that the modern expansive form of Islam is on a collision course with basically all other faiths on the planet.

Since the collapse of the caliphate of Cordoba, there has not been a truly tolerant Islamic culture. We need to be able to call a spade a spade. Within the body politic of our respective countries we can work to ensure that immigration policies favor those applicants that can fully integrate into modern culture. This doesn't mean a ban on all Muslim immigration, but it really should include a ban on Islamic fundamentalism. It is hateful towards women, violent towards non-believers and leads to island communities of medieval cultures in otherwise modern societies. That there are other elements of misogyny and intolerance in our culture does not argue for importing new ones.


Yes, there are definitely problems in Islamic culture on the whole, or at least things that make it at odds with the values of much of "the rest" of the world. However, this does not make all Muslims knowingly complicit in violence, in any way. Nor should it be carte blanche for people to connect all the various negative aspects of modern Islamic cultures, and roll them into a nice, neat ball of blame - which is usually what I see from people with these sorts of "Islam is inherently worse than X" arguments.

I am not sure how one can ban outright fundamentalism in a "free" first world country, and that would be an idea with some awful historical precedent, one set up very nicely for flagrant abuse. To begin with, simply defining "fundamentalism" is a task of an within itself, in any religion, and certainly with regard to singling out one religion in terms of immigration policy...truly a terrible, terrible idea.

I didn't say there was an equivalency between Buddhists and Muslims either, get off your high horse on that count. For the record I think that while Buddhism has hd it's times of hypocrisy and abhorrent behavior, I think it's stood against those things far better than the "big three" ever have.

Quote:
ny sane person can see that the modern expansive form of Islam is on a collision course with basically all other faiths on the planet.


What exactly is the "modern expansive form of Islam", can you please define that, explain in what ways it is a threat, and how it differs from other forms of Islam..or do you believe that it is the only form out there? Which Muslims adhere to this form of Islam that is on a collision course with everyone else?

_________________
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits


Last edited by Johnny Dangerous on Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:29 pm
Posts: 1
Hello Brother,

in case that something goes totally wrong with this world .. please kindly notice and protect this data from Bodhgaya , past , present and future .

http://projectcamelotproductions.com/in ... hgaya.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uw3cIplGy0 ( Miles Johnston Bases 16 ..parts 1-5 )

I'm not wishing to attract more attention to the topic. Feeling very saddened by the development of events in current timeline.

Praying for Peace and Happiness for All Sentient Beings , on Earth and Beyond


:namaste: :alien: :heart:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:41 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 2106
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
kirtu wrote:
Do other saplings currently exist in the event that the tree is destroyed?

Kirt


The Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi was made from a sapling of the original tree, which was destroyed. And then a sapling from this tree in Sri Lanka was used for the current Bodhi Tree. So actually the tree in Sri Lanka is "older" and quite "authentic" to the original and could still be used to plant new Bodhi Trees.

_________________
Image
www.TheDhamma.com/
Dhamma Wiki encyclopedia
Dhamma Wheel forum


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:42 am 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
David N. Snyder wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Do other saplings currently exist in the event that the tree is destroyed?

Kirt


The Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi was made from a sapling of the original tree, which was destroyed. And then a sapling from this tree in Sri Lanka was used for the current Bodhi Tree. So actually the tree in Sri Lanka is "older" and quite "authentic" to the original and could still be used to plant new Bodhi Trees.


I was aware of the history of the Mahabodhi tree. However does the tree in Sri Lanka still exist? Since the Sri Lankans fell into genocide it would be best to make a copy of the tree in some form for future preservation.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:11 am
Posts: 383
Quote:
As yet we do not know why or by whom this sacred site was targeted. However, I am convinced that, as Buddhists, in responding to this situation, the best homage we can pay to Lord Buddha is to uphold his teachings on love and ahimsa (non-violence).

I ask you, therefore, to remain calm and refrain from any further escalation of the violence. I offer my prayers for the victims and their families, and call on Buddhists everywhere to truly embrace the wisdom of Lord Buddha’s teachings in all that we do.


-- The 17th Karmapa, Orgyen Trinlay

_________________
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 734
Location: SouthEast USA
Uh huh, I don't hate anyone but I can tell you my people tried non-violence, not defending themselves, they and my relatives wound up in the ovens in Germany. Buddhisma and Jainism permit self-defense and I'd do that anyday.

Unfortunately Islamic countries look to their past and their leaders give them anti-semitism, anti-westernims as distractions so they don't reflect on how awful and backwards their lives are. Y Yeah I don't want to be a woman, a lesbian woman, in an Islamic country, I know a Saudi lesbian and she's afraid to tell her parents lest they kill her. It's not all equivalent, and yes, Sunnis kill Shia's who kill Ahmadis, Ismailis anyone who they consider heterodox Muslims. There isn't any kind of religious tolerance today in Islamic countries. you've got to submit,

_________________
Honmon Butsuryu Shu
http://www.beikokuhbs.com/index.html
http://www.hbsitalia.it/
NamuMyohoRengeKyo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:11 am
Posts: 383
Because of my interest in homeopathy (it's widely used in Pakistan and increasingly popular in the Gulf states) I've come into contact with many Muslims and they are very good, decent, and humble people.

_________________
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:48 pm
Posts: 963
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Yeah, really the only solution is put all Muslims in camps and track them, seriously, it's for everyone's safety. Not being prejudiced or anything, i'm just saying that all Muslims everywhere ever are quite clearly warlike and are all involved somehow in this bombing, and are involved in an active worldwide conspiracy to overthrow western civilization. Not being prejudiced or anything though.




This hatred will only begat more hatred.This violence will only begat more violence.
Once you push the buggy down the hill,you cant get off you have to ride it all the way till it crashes.


Last edited by Son of Buddha on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:29 am 
Online
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
I am concerned about the incendiary nature of some of the postings in this thread. While I mull over what to do about some of the language expressed I would urge people to consider if their speech (their posting) would unduly upset, harm or even hurt others or cause them in any way to come to harm, and if so, to avoid that speech.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
The bombing sets an unfortunate precedent. It means that anyone with a grievance against a Buddhist authority and/or predominately Buddhist nation (Thailand and Sri Lanka come to mind) will recall this event. Bodhgaya is one option, but Sarnath, Kushinagar, Lumbini and other major locations are all open the public and poorly secured. The idea that you can settle your scores with Buddhists through attacking their holy sites now has a strong precedent.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:34 am 
Offline
Global Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Posts: 3037
Location: Olympia WA
Son of Buddha wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Yeah, really the only solution is put all Muslims in camps and track them, seriously, it's for everyone's safety. Not being prejudiced or anything, i'm just saying that all Muslims everywhere ever are quite clearly warlike and are all involved somehow in this bombing, and are involved in an active worldwide conspiracy to overthrow western civilization. Not being prejudiced or anything though.




This hatred will only begat more hatred.This violence will only begat more violence.
Once you push the buggy down the hill,you cant get off you have to ride it all the way till it crashes.



Argh..I guess sarcasm doesn't translate in text so well..it was intended utterly sarcastically, because I am so sick of seeing constant posts about how terrible all of Islam is, how it's a danger to civilization and needs to be stopped, and tallies of all the bad stuff Islam has done compared to the bad stuff everyone else does every time some loon puts a bomb somewhere. I know this one hits close to our hearts, but honestly I thought Buddhists would have an easier time not thinking that way.. I figured the "i'm not being prejudiced" after writing an incredibly xenophobic trail of nonsense would give it away as sarcastic, but it didn't read that way I guess.

It's not that I object to criticizing Islam or it's institutions, there's plenty there to criticize..it's that most of the criticism I see takes the form of something that is not much different to old school anti semitism or similar, where the entire group is labeled as acting with one will to subvert another culture.

So again in case anyone thought the quoted post was serious it wasn't at all as was intended to point out (albeit obnoxiously which maybe I should have thought better of) the huge flaw in ideas put forth such as the one mentioned by Karma Dorje of banning "fundamentalist immigration", slippery slope to bad things when we start thinking like that IMO. Maybe I should not have expressed myself that way, it's just that humor of this kind is only way I even know how to dialogue anymore when Islamic terrorism comes up. Sorry if this language was incendiary Kirtu.

At any rate i'm hugely saddened by the events, and i'm glad that no one died. I agree it sets a horrible precedent:( I have always had a dream to go to Bodh Gaya one day, this will always be in the back of head if I ever make it, and I imagine it will be for anyone who goes there.

_________________
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Posts: 734
Location: SouthEast USA
Do me a favour; until you see groups of people for millenia hating Muslims and killing them just for existing do not compare it to anti-semitism. I'm Jewish and cannot stomach such equivalency. Don't compare. The holocaust is neither Rwandan nor Cambodia, you cheapen others' sufferings by comparing them. They are all terrible in their individual ways .. I've had many Iranian and Pakistani friends in university they were from the educated elites, drank liquor etc were moderate enlightened Muslims. The rank and file of peoples in the Islamic world aren't that fortunate and are brought up on hatred by their governments and mullahs, except for Ismailis and Ahmadis. Ask those humble people what they think of Jews, homosexuals, shias, Bahai's and you just might wake up, it's a question of re-education and I don't see that happening soon, sadly enough.

Ven. Indrajala, well welcome to my unpleasant world, in NYC when I went to temple with my parents, there were guards and sharpshooters to protect us. What a horrible way to live....My attitude is not to get attached to any Buddhist site, it can be rebuilt.

_________________
Honmon Butsuryu Shu
http://www.beikokuhbs.com/index.html
http://www.hbsitalia.it/
NamuMyohoRengeKyo


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm
Posts: 362
Not surprised that this has happened. I hope it is the last time.

Of course it means that events now at Bodh Gaya like monlams, Kalachakra teachings etc. will be much more heavily policed, security cordons etc.

Sad. :(

_________________
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm
Posts: 972
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Argh..I guess sarcasm doesn't translate in text so well..it was intended utterly sarcastically, because I am so sick of seeing constant posts about how terrible all of Islam is, how it's a danger to civilization and needs to be stopped, and tallies of all the bad stuff Islam has done compared to the bad stuff everyone else does every time some loon puts a bomb somewhere. I know this one hits close to our hearts, but honestly I thought Buddhists would have an easier time not thinking that way.. I figured the "i'm not being prejudiced" after writing an incredibly xenophobic trail of nonsense would give it away as sarcastic, but it didn't read that way I guess.


Nobody here aside from you in jest suggested concentration camps or a pogrom. Nobody suggested that all Muslims are bad people. This is a straw man that you have created in what looks like an attempt to shut down conversation. If we replace "fundamentalist Islam" with "neo-Nazism", nobody would object to criticism of the ideology. Unfortunately, there is a false equivalence between fundamentalist Islam and other religions that gives it a free pass it does not deserve. There is next to no condemnation of fundamentalist Islam from within Islamic societies, even those that are more or less modern. In many cases, these societies openly promote fundamentalism.

If we can't realize that many modern forms of Islam are themselves hateful, xenophobic and counter to our values we won't be able to recognize the clear and present danger that they present. If Sufis have to fear their co-religionists because of their bloodthirsty zeal, how much more do the rest of us "kafir"?

_________________
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
This brings to mind Huntington's Clash of Civilizations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations
Quote:
Huntington also argues that civilizational conflicts are "particularly prevalent between Muslims and non-Muslims", identifying the "bloody borders" between Islamic and non-Islamic civilizations. This conflict dates back as far as the initial thrust of Islam into Europe,[citation needed] its eventual expulsion in the Iberian reconquest and the attacks of the Ottoman Turks on Eastern Europe and Vienna. Huntington also believes that some of the factors contributing to this conflict are that both Christianity (which has influenced Western civilization) and Islam are:

Missionary religions, seeking conversion of others
Universal, "all-or-nothing" religions, in the sense that it is believed by both sides that only their faith is the correct one
Teleological religions, that is, that their values and beliefs represent the goals of existence and purpose in human existence.
Irreligious people who violate the base principles of those religions are perceived to be furthering their own pointless aims, which leads to violent interactions.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm
Posts: 972
Indrajala wrote:
This brings to mind Huntington's Clash of Civilizations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations
Quote:
Huntington also argues that civilizational conflicts are "particularly prevalent between Muslims and non-Muslims", identifying the "bloody borders" between Islamic and non-Islamic civilizations. This conflict dates back as far as the initial thrust of Islam into Europe,[citation needed] its eventual expulsion in the Iberian reconquest and the attacks of the Ottoman Turks on Eastern Europe and Vienna. Huntington also believes that some of the factors contributing to this conflict are that both Christianity (which has influenced Western civilization) and Islam are:

Missionary religions, seeking conversion of others
Universal, "all-or-nothing" religions, in the sense that it is believed by both sides that only their faith is the correct one
Teleological religions, that is, that their values and beliefs represent the goals of existence and purpose in human existence.
Irreligious people who violate the base principles of those religions are perceived to be furthering their own pointless aims, which leads to violent interactions.


Definitely, though the Caliphate of Cordoba was quite tolerant so I think his point about the Iberian peninsula is a bit muddied. The Alhambra was built by Christian, Jewish and Muslim artisans and indeed was more tolerant than the Catholics that followed after the Reconquista. Indeed the Inquisition was primarily aimed at Jewish and Muslim conversos that were suspected to be still carrying on their religious practices in secret. So it is true that Islam has no monopoly on religious intolerance.

_________________
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group