Delusional Minds

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Delusional Minds

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:28 pm

I was listening to Gelek Rimpoche of Jewel Heart this morning and he talked a bit about this.
In his talk he said we must remove the negativities and nurture the positiveities and tame our minds.

The difficult part of this is our minds are controlled by delusional thoughts.
We see something we like, strive to get it, possibly steal it, and then have control over it. This is greed.
We see something/someone we dislike, this turns to anger and despite, then to hate.
These are two of the of the things we need to remove from our lives to further our paths.
But this is also difficult to do as these things come naturally to our delusional minds.

I know I do my best to overcome these thoughts/feelings and at times it is difficult.
When I stay regular with my meditation, twice a day for 15-20 min each time, things are more easily overcome or delt with.

I am hoping to hear others view on this. Thanks

:namaste:
Dave
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Delusional Minds

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:53 pm

I dunno, i've given up trying to actively change myself personally.

Self-liberation of thoughts is the only sort of method that has ever worked for me, I have never been able to "decrease" any of that stuff through meditation, only to change my relationship to it. I do think though that those things are less likely to find their way "outside" and affect other people through meditative practices.

I remember reading something where someone asked how a teacher how to decrease thoughts and he pretty much said "you'll have less thought when you're dead", wasn't about negative thought per se..but the advice holds true for me.

Chipping away at all our nastiness habits since beginning less time is like trying to use a spoon to dig up a mountain or something...I gravitate more and more to kind of "solution" given by teachings like Mahamudra and Dzogchen, where the whole relationship gets shifted.. rather than the more gradual elimination of this stuff in sutra teachings.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Delusional Minds

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:11 pm

Thanks for the input JD.

I think the part that hit me most, is the tame our minds. In doing so, we should also be more aware of these delusional thoughts.

I have never been able to "decrease" any of that stuff through meditation, only to change my relationship to it.


But have you decreased the attachment to these type of thoughts? Is that what you mean here? Just trying to understand my friend.
And I agree that through meditation these things don't get "outside" to affect or harm others. So in that aspect wouldn't it be changing yourself for the better by not harming others?

:namaste:
Dave
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Delusional Minds

Postby Koji » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:47 pm

[quote="Dave The Seeker"]I was listening to Gelek Rimpoche of Jewel Heart this morning and he talked a bit about this.
In his talk he said we must remove the negativities and nurture the positiveities and tame our minds.

The difficult part of this is our minds are controlled by delusional thoughts.
We see something we like, strive to get it, possibly steal it, and then have control over it. This is greed.
We see something/someone we dislike, this turns to anger and despite, then to hate.
These are two of the of the things we need to remove from our lives to further our paths.
But this is also difficult to do as these things come naturally to our delusional minds.

I know I do my best to overcome these thoughts/feelings and at times it is difficult.
When I stay regular with my meditation, twice a day for 15-20 min each time, things are more easily overcome or delt with.

I am hoping to hear others view on this. Thanks

:namaste:

Seek the fruit of the Bodhi-tree. It cures all ills. But first you have to give up the ways of the world and asceticism.
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Re: Delusional Minds

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:10 pm

Dave The Seeker wrote:Thanks for the input JD.

I think the part that hit me most, is the tame our minds. In doing so, we should also be more aware of these delusional thoughts.

I have never been able to "decrease" any of that stuff through meditation, only to change my relationship to it.


But have you decreased the attachment to these type of thoughts? Is that what you mean here? Just trying to understand my friend.
And I agree that through meditation these things don't get "outside" to affect or harm others. So in that aspect wouldn't it be changing yourself for the better by not harming others?

:namaste:
Dave



Yes, I do have less attachment to them, but it's more (from the little understanding i've managed to get) about changing ones relationship to the thoughts, it's about the attachment more than the thought. You can consider it "changing yourself" on a relative level, but on an absolute level there really isn't anything to change. It all sounds very abstract and high-minded, but if you think about it this is even in accord with Tathagatagarbha ideas...there really isn't anything to change or modify, and trying to change or modify that stuff is just creating more of that stuff. I know this is not a concept that might work out in practice for plenty of people, for me though it has been the only approach with results. I tried the approach of "limiting" myself for years and got (as far as I can tell) no decrease whatsoever in anger, self-anger, other things I struggle with.

To use another hopelessly cliched (but I think true) example, one of the biggest stumbling blocks can simply be "self acceptance", there is no way to improve anything without first having some kind of unconditional acceptance of just whatever it is you think you are going to "change", if you constantly have an idea of the thing that is wrong to be corrected, there really is no progress in that battle, just something like a fish constantly wriggling out of your hands. It's like trying to create a second, better "self", when the whole problem isn't the quality of a self in the first place, but the relationship to what you see as a self. This is all IME of course, I know none of this applies to others necessarily.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Delusional Minds

Postby Dave The Seeker » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:35 pm

Thanks koji :thanks:

JD I understand what you're saying and I'm glad you have found a path that is working for you. :twothumbsup:
I also deal with anger and things like you've mentioned. After quitting drinking and letting Buddha's teachings help me understand the mind-body that is me, I was able to move past many of the things that harmed me and others in my life.

We each have a path that is unique to us, but we can learn from others and their experiences.

:namaste:
Dave
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
User avatar
Dave The Seeker
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:02 pm
Location: Reading MI USA


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