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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:08 am 
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The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:19 am 
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If it disrupts social harmony and causes ill feelings amongst some of the related parties, then yes, it is misconduct and should be avoided.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:20 am 
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Nighthawk wrote:
The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?


Yes - whether anyone else knows about it or not.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:13 am 
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Well that's a bummer... jk. :mrgreen: Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:54 pm 
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Nighthawk wrote:
The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?


You mean someone else's wife or girlfriend? Then yes.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:43 am 
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I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.

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"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:21 am 
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Nighthawk wrote:
The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?

Obviously it is the source of possibly disharmony, to say the least. As for sexual misconduct, with a wife of someone else, yes, I think so, according to AN 10.176.

Sexual misconduct in Pali is kāmesumicchācāra, cāra - doing, micchā - wrong, kāma - which refers to either sensual pleasure in any of the 6 senses, or sensual desire. So if one is acting out of sensual desire, which I can't see how one isn't if they are kissing, with someone who is designated as an object of kāmesumicchācāra, then tathārūpāsu cārittaṃ āpajjitā hoti - he falls into such a manner of acting.

Those who are objects of kāmesumicchācāra are a woman protected by mother, father, both parents, brother, sister, relatives, clan, (all presumably implying that she is young in age) or the same nature (presumably meaning incest). Also, one who has a husband, is liable to punishment, or on whom a garland has been placed (engaged).

I am not sure that they had the notion of "girlfriend" in the Buddha's time. Even until earlier in the 20th century, if one was seeing someone frequently, as one sees a girlfriend, it would be presumed to be some form of courtship, and one would be expected to remain celibate until marriage. So obviously social convention changes, and it seems the Buddha was simply proscribing rules against acting in a way which most in society then, and still today, would have considered sexual misconduct. But today, I do not think people expect you to kiss another's girlfriend, and I would presume it is still against social convention - but I have no idea, maybe you live in California or something.
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I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.
This may be some kind of interpolation of "antamaso mālāguḷaparikkhittāpi," even one on whom garlands have been hung.
:anjali:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:25 am 
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Konchog1 wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.

I suppose it would depend on the circumstances, but if your intention is to win them over it would be and also if you're doing it secretly from either your spouse or theirs.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:23 am 
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Ben Yuan wrote:
This may be some kind of interpolation of "antamaso mālāguḷaparikkhittāpi," even one on whom garlands have been hung.
:anjali:
Oh! That's right! It was the other way around, sorry. It was 'It's sexual misconduct to flirt with someone that another has merely given flowers too'.

In other words, the person you flirt with don't have to be in a relationship. If someone else is serious about them and you know this, it is sexual misconduct.

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-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:33 am 
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Konchog1 wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.

If the intention to give the flower is to get into the person's pants then I can see why. Did you read this in a sutra or from a teacher?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:36 am 
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Ben Yuan wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:
The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?


- but I have no idea, maybe you live in California or something.

:anjali:

lol no, I don't live in California and this is not something I'm thinking of doing. Just wanted to know how far the precept of sexual misconduct can go.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:41 am 
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Nighthawk wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.

If the intention to give the flower is to get into the person's pants then I can see why. Did you read this in a sutra or from a teacher?
Read my above post. Also, I don't remember. It might have been accesstoinsight.org

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Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats


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