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Craving - Analysis. - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Craving - Analysis.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mirco
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby mirco » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:46 am

"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." -

vinasp
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby vinasp » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:49 pm

Hi everyone,

The three cravings in the four noble truths - continued.

It seems, to me at least, rather odd that these three cravings are nowhere
explained in the Sutta Pitaka. Nowhere in over ten thousand discourses?

Kama-tanha.

From Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka:

KAMA may denote: 1. subjective sensuality, "sense-desire";
2. objective sensuality, the five sense objects.

The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw says:

"... kama tanha is craving for pleasurable sense objects ..."

But when an enlightened individual sees a "pleasurable sense object" no
craving arises - why is this?

And who decides whether any given sense object is pleasurable or not?

What I am trying to say here is that just seeing an object cannot cause
craving to arise. How would you know - just from the seeing - that the
object was a potential source of pleasure?

Something else is involved, and as soon as this is admitted, then the
"object" is no longer the actual visible form, but something originating
in the mind. A thought, an idea, a recognition, an imagination, something
other than just seeing.

So my own interpretation is that all talk of "sense objects" is really
talking about "mind-objects" which represent those sense objects.

To be continued, regards, Vincent.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:35 pm


vinasp
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby vinasp » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:22 pm

Hi everyone,

Bhava Tanha.

The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw says;

"According to the Commentary, bhava tanha is the craving that is
accompanied by sassata ditthi, the wrong view of eternalism. Here,
bhava means becoming or being. Hence bhava tanha is craving based
on the belief in the permanence and stability of existence."

[ The Great Discourse on the Turning of the Wheel of Dhamma, page 161 ]

Why does he need to resort to the commentary, is nothing said in the Sutta
Pitaka?

What, in the quotation above, is from the commentary, and what is his own
interpretation?

Is he saying that bhava tanha is "the craving that is accompanied by
sassata ditthi", or that it is "based on" sassata ditthi?

Since clinging and craving are involved in all such dogmatic views, would
it not be better to say that bhava tanha is the craving for the idea of
eternalism. Craving which results in clinging to the idea, which is what
is meant by a wrong view.

If you think that a craving for existence ( or being, or becoming) could
result in any REAL existence, then you are mistaken. However, it could
result in the illusion of existence.

Craving for, and clinging to, the idea of an eternal self, creates the
illusion of a self which will continue to exist for ever.

To be continued, regards, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby vinasp » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:40 pm

Hi Spiny,

"Do these various classifications of craving ( tanha ) also apply to aversion ( dosa )?"

That is an interesting question. The sixfold classification is certainly
used, I am not sure about the others.

Is craving meant to include desire and aversion? I do not know.

It would mean that we cling to unpleasant things, does that make any sense
to you?

Regards, Vincent.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:51 am


vinasp
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby vinasp » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:48 pm

Hi everyone,

In MN 11.6 the Buddha says:

"Bhikkhus, there are these two views: the view of being and the view
of non-being."

In Pali these are: bhava-ditthi and vibhava-ditthi.

These two views are very important, the Buddha goes on to explain that
those who do not understand the origin and the cessation of these two
views do not become liberated.

The usual interpretation of these two views is that they are just
alternative names for the eternalist view (sassata-ditthi) and the
annihilationist view (uccheda-ditthi). These are both views about
the future, which posit a real self in the present.

This seems, to me, to be correct, although I know of no passage in the
Sutta Pitaka which confirms this.

If we accept that craving is involved in all such dogmatic wrong views,
then these cravings could be called: bhava-tanha and vibhava-tanha.

No one can be liberated without the cessation of whichever of these two
views they have, which requires the cessation of the craving involved.
Both cravings are included in the four noble truths because some people
have one view, and some have the other view.

Regards, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby vinasp » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:57 pm

Hi everyone,

Vibhava-tanha.

The Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw says of vibhava-tanha:

"This is the tanha which is accompanied by the wrong view of
non-existence, uccheda ditthi, which holds that "nothing
remains after death; there is complete annihilation."
[ page 162 ]

My interpretation is only slightly different, that vibhava-tanha is the
craving involved in the annihilationist view, also called the non-being
view (vibhava-ditthi).

Both the eternalist view and the annihilationist view depend on identity
view (sakkaya-ditthi), and cease when identity view ceases.

"As to the various views that arise in the world, householder,
"The world is eternal" ... - these as well as the sixty-two
speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajala: when there is
identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity
view, these views do not come to be." [ SN 41.3 - Isidatta (2) ]

Identity view can be understood as the view of a real, presently existing
self. All views about this self in the future are based on identity view.

Regards, Vincent.

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mirco
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby mirco » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:41 pm

Sister Khema delivering a course on the 12 links of Dependent Origination.
Craving starts at . Maybe this helps a bit.

best wishes, :-)
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." -

vinasp
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby vinasp » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:44 pm

Hi everyone,

In Dependent Origination craving arises in dependence on feeling, clinging
arises in dependence on craving, and being arises in dependence on clinging.

The Pali term translated as being is bhava, this is a difficult word to
translate. Other renderings are: becoming and existence. What is meant
here is not the being of inanimate objects, but the existence of a being.

I try to make this clear by expressions such as: (personal) being, or
(personal) existence. Or even (self) existence, provided that we remember
that self is an illusion.

In MN 9.30 there is said to be three kinds of being:

1. Sense-sphere being - kama bhava.
2. Fine-material being - rupa bhava.
3. Immaterial being - arupa bhava.

This Sutta continues : "With the cessation of clinging there is the
cessation of being."

So when craving ceases, clinging ceases and (personal) existence ceases.

In SN 12.68 we find:

"Nibbana is the cessation of existence." [ bhava niroddho nibbanam. ]

So (personal) existence is sustained continuously by the craving for
existence - bhava-tanha. But bhava-tanha is the craving involved in
the view of self, the craving which sustains the view of self. So
(personal) existence is just the view of self - an illusion.

Regards, Vincent.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:20 pm


vinasp
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby vinasp » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:21 pm

Hi Spiny,

When Dependent Origination is considered with the links ceasing in this life,
as a description of enlightenment, then many links have to be understood in
some other way.

The link "bhava" is, in the three lifetimes interpretation, understood as
actual existence ( including actual bodily existence).

I am suggesting that the only interpretation which makes sense, when the
links are ceasing in this life, is that "bhava" is just the view of self.
Just the illusion of an existing self.

Regards, Vincent.

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mirco
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby mirco » Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:46 am

Last edited by mirco on Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." -

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piotr
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby piotr » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:57 am

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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mikenz66
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:03 am


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:16 pm


vinasp
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby vinasp » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:43 pm

Hi everyone,

The term sankhara, in its widest sense, means "constructive activity", and
the thing constructed is a sankhata. So for example when a bird is building
a nest, its activity is sankhara, the nest is a sankhata - a constructed
thing.

When we find the term sankhara in the Sutta Pitaka, in most cases, it is
being used in a more restricted sense. It can mean mental volition, or it
can mean the mental habits that result from repeated volition. It can also
refer to habits of speech and behaviour, which originate from volition.

Since a wrong view is seen as volitional it is classed as a sankhara, but
sometimes called a sankhata.

Most of the links in Dependent Origination are sankhara's, meaning mental
habits. This is how the links should be understood when they are ceasing
in this life.

So if the link "bhava" is the view of self, it is a habit and a sankhara.

Regards, Vincent.

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:24 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:10 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Craving - Analysis.

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:29 pm



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