Third precept clarification

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.

Third precept clarification

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:08 am

The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?
Nighthawk
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Indrajala » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:19 am

If it disrupts social harmony and causes ill feelings amongst some of the related parties, then yes, it is misconduct and should be avoided.
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog)
Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog)
Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog)
Dharma Depository (Site)

"Hui gives me no assistance. There is nothing that I say in which he does not delight." -Confucius
User avatar
Indrajala
 
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Location: Nepal

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Will » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:20 am

Nighthawk wrote:The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?


Yes - whether anyone else knows about it or not.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
User avatar
Will
 
Posts: 1866
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Nighthawk » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:13 am

Well that's a bummer... jk. :mrgreen: Thanks.
Nighthawk
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby kirtu » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:54 pm

Nighthawk wrote:The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?


You mean someone else's wife or girlfriend? Then yes.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:43 am

I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
Konchog1
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Zhen Li » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:21 am

Nighthawk wrote:The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?

Obviously it is the source of possibly disharmony, to say the least. As for sexual misconduct, with a wife of someone else, yes, I think so, according to AN 10.176.

Sexual misconduct in Pali is kāmesumicchācāra, cāra - doing, micchā - wrong, kāma - which refers to either sensual pleasure in any of the 6 senses, or sensual desire. So if one is acting out of sensual desire, which I can't see how one isn't if they are kissing, with someone who is designated as an object of kāmesumicchācāra, then tathārūpāsu cārittaṃ āpajjitā hoti - he falls into such a manner of acting.

Those who are objects of kāmesumicchācāra are a woman protected by mother, father, both parents, brother, sister, relatives, clan, (all presumably implying that she is young in age) or the same nature (presumably meaning incest). Also, one who has a husband, is liable to punishment, or on whom a garland has been placed (engaged).

I am not sure that they had the notion of "girlfriend" in the Buddha's time. Even until earlier in the 20th century, if one was seeing someone frequently, as one sees a girlfriend, it would be presumed to be some form of courtship, and one would be expected to remain celibate until marriage. So obviously social convention changes, and it seems the Buddha was simply proscribing rules against acting in a way which most in society then, and still today, would have considered sexual misconduct. But today, I do not think people expect you to kiss another's girlfriend, and I would presume it is still against social convention - but I have no idea, maybe you live in California or something.
I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.
This may be some kind of interpolation of "antamaso mālāguḷaparikkhittāpi," even one on whom garlands have been hung.
:anjali:
Image
User avatar
Zhen Li
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby shaunc » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:25 am

Konchog1 wrote:I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.

I suppose it would depend on the circumstances, but if your intention is to win them over it would be and also if you're doing it secretly from either your spouse or theirs.
shaunc
 
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:10 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:23 am

Ben Yuan wrote:This may be some kind of interpolation of "antamaso mālāguḷaparikkhittāpi," even one on whom garlands have been hung.
:anjali:
Oh! That's right! It was the other way around, sorry. It was 'It's sexual misconduct to flirt with someone that another has merely given flowers too'.

In other words, the person you flirt with don't have to be in a relationship. If someone else is serious about them and you know this, it is sexual misconduct.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
Konchog1
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:33 am

Konchog1 wrote:I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.

If the intention to give the flower is to get into the person's pants then I can see why. Did you read this in a sutra or from a teacher?
Nighthawk
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Nighthawk » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:36 am

Ben Yuan wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:The act of making out with someone's wife or girlfriend. Is that also sexual misconduct?


- but I have no idea, maybe you live in California or something.

:anjali:

lol no, I don't live in California and this is not something I'm thinking of doing. Just wanted to know how far the precept of sexual misconduct can go.
Nighthawk
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Third precept clarification

Postby Konchog1 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:41 am

Nighthawk wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:I recall reading somewhere that even giving a flower to someone else's lover is sexual misconduct. I forgot where I read that though.

If the intention to give the flower is to get into the person's pants then I can see why. Did you read this in a sutra or from a teacher?
Read my above post. Also, I don't remember. It might have been accesstoinsight.org
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
User avatar
Konchog1
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am


Return to Ethical Conduct

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jikan and 3 guests

>