Most recent terma?

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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Bhusuku » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:49 am

mutsuk wrote:It is traditionally associated with pure visions (dag snang).

Thank you, Mutsuk!

So, is mnal chos then just one way or method to reveal dag snang teachings? We have, for example, Dudjom Lingpa's "dag snang ye shes drwa ba" -- was that revealed by other means than through mnal chos?
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby yegyal » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:04 am

The major difference between dag snang and terma is that the latter were intentionally concealed so that they could later be revealed or taken out of their place of concealment. Though, pure visions can occur in the dream, waking, or meditative states, it's not that they are revealed through these processes, but rather that these visions are considered to be instances of actually meeting with enlightened beings. On the other hand, the transmission of the teachings contained in treasures generally happened long ago and are later awakened in the revelatory process.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Bhusuku » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:06 pm

yegyal wrote:it's not that they are revealed through these processes, but rather that these visions are considered to be instances of actually meeting with enlightened beings.

Right, I guess I phrased my question above badly... But you answered my question anyway: pure visions can occur in the dream (i.e. mnal chos), waking- or meditative states -- that's what I wanted to know. ;)

BTW, on another forum I came across the following statement from to Jean-Luc Achard:

"...in general mnal-chos (dream-teaching) are quite controversial in Tibet, even among Tertöns themselves (Sang-ngak Lingpa considered them as frauds). Lopon once told me that these mnal-chos cannot be considered as Termas."

Can anybody elaborate on that? I mean, why are pure visions occuring in dreams regarded as controversial or even as fraud (REALLY??? :shock: ) while the other two (i.e. during waking- or meditative states) are not?
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby mutsuk » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:31 pm

Bhusuku wrote:Can anybody elaborate on that? I mean, why are pure visions occuring in dreams regarded as controversial or even as fraud (REALLY??? :shock: ) while the other two (i.e. during waking- or meditative states) are not?


I'll ask JL this summer to comment on that, but I remember that at the time of Sang-ngak Lingpa there were quite a bunch of people claiming to be tertöns, revealing texts from dreams, etc.,which were not conform to the tradition. This is highly contextual and should not be generalized. Sang-ngak Lingpa stated that except for highly advanced practitioners, dreams are simply the reflection of our karmic impregnations and therefore "teachings" coming from such state should not be trusted or compared to actual termas. But he was referring to these individuals claiming to be tertöns and actually being fakes, not to dag-snang/mnal-chos in general.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Yeti » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:38 am

I've looked, but I can't seem to find it at present, but I heard Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche in an online video say there were termas currently being revealed, but there was a lot of scepticism regarding the tertons, so they were not revelling them publicly.

I would assume that they are being practised in closed sangha until the time is right to reveal them to the sangha at large. It seems to me this not unusual and happens with various termas and tertons anyway.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Kunzang » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:21 am

Lhug-Pa wrote:Instead of calling Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's Longsal Teachings "termas" or "mnal chos", how about:

Lhug-Pa wrote:rMi-lam gTer


Now I don't think that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu refers to them as such, however I also don't think that rMi-lam gTer is a terminology invented by Jim Valby, John Myrdhin Reynolds, or Rangjung Yeshe Wiki either.


I was on a roadtrip this past week and came across this place on Skyline Drive. Cool coincidence.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Clarence » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:12 am

Ah, Shenendoah. Wonderful. Have driven by that same sign multiple times.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:05 pm

I seem to remember ChNN saying in a webcast that his teachings are not, strictly speaking, termas but come from dreams of clarity. Does no one else remember hearing this? I think maybe the use of the word "terma" in DC publications reflects a less nuanced understanding on the part of the people who do the publishing about the distinction between the way ChNN revealed his teachings and the way termas come about.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby mutsuk » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:07 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:I seem to remember ChNN saying in a webcast that his teachings are not, strictly speaking, termas but come from dreams of clarity. Does no one else remember hearing this?

Yes, there must have been two occasions in 2012 or this year when he said that.

I think maybe the use of the word "terma" in DC publications reflects a less nuanced understanding on the part of the people who do the publishing about the distinction between the way ChNN revealed his teachings and the way termas come about.

Indeed.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:57 pm

I remember. Since 2007 in the preface of the publications of the Longsal Volumes changed from rediscovered to discovered teachings.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:13 pm

Interesting.. this would render a whole bunch of dialogue back on Esangha about the acceptance of the validity of his "terma" by established Nyingma masters and community moot...
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby mutsuk » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:25 am

Maybe all his Klong-gsal works are not mnal-chos, some are possibly Termas, I actually don't know (all those I read were mnal-chos but I've only read what has been published, except for a few works). However, he also has a gter-ston name, something you don't need if you reveal "only" mnal-chos.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Pero » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:49 am

mutsuk wrote:Maybe all his Klong-gsal works are not mnal-chos, some are possibly Termas, I actually don't know (all those I read were mnal-chos but I've only read what has been published, except for a few works). However, he also has a gter-ston name, something you don't need if you reveal "only" mnal-chos.

But all his Longsal works have the terma sign at the end of lines and Longsal Cycle has its own symbol. One published work at least was received in a waking vision too. Does that name start with Longchen? (not sure if it's a secret)
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby alpha » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:29 am

A few days ago i had a discussion with someone where she made a point of how male dominated the tibetan buddhism is in general.
The discussion veered off towards DC and i tried to show her how this particular community has a very strong female presence.This is something which always intrigued me and i've quite often wandered why this is so and if there is a connection between Jnanadakini and the very strong female presence in DC.

And recently i've found the following paragraph which explains how for a terton the female principle is very important:
"One of the special requirements for the discovery of termas is the inspiration of the feminine principle, just as it was necessary for their concealment. The great majority of tertöns have been men, and generally they are accompanied by their wives or female companions (who need not necessarily have a sexual relationship with them). Alternatively, something representing the tertön's complementary energy, whether male or female, must be present."
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby mutsuk » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:25 pm

There are lots of gter-ston who did not have a consort. And many of them were not monks.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby heart » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:25 pm

I just now reread Jamgon Kongtrul's biography, "A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems", and it strikes me that he, just like ChNNR, has a huge amount of dreams with all kinds of transmissions in them. He meet enlightened masters, and deities and receive teachings from them. He finds termas and see "signs of termas", he receive Tantras and transmissions of Tantras, he do practices such as Tögal in his dreams and so on.

I find it quite interesting I must say.

/magnus
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:49 pm

heart wrote:I just now reread Jamgon Kongtrul's biography, "A Marvelous Garland of Rare Gems", and it strikes me that he, just like ChNNR, has a huge amount of dreams with all kinds of transmissions in them. He meet enlightened masters, and deities and receive teachings from them. He finds termas and see "signs of termas", he receive Tantras and transmissions of Tantras, he do practices such as Tögal in his dreams and so on.

I find it quite interesting I must say.

/magnus


Yes it is.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby flavio81 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:01 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:I seem to remember ChNN saying in a webcast that his teachings are not, strictly speaking, termas but come from dreams of clarity. Does no one else remember hearing this?


Yes, he has mentioned this in many retreats. But referring to some teachings like longsal teachings.

alpha wrote:A few days ago i had a discussion with someone where she made a point of how male dominated the tibetan buddhism is in general.
The discussion veered off towards DC and i tried to show her how this particular community has a very strong female presence.This is something which always intrigued me and i've quite often wandered why this is so and if there is a connection between Jnanadakini and the very strong female presence in DC.


Well, how about...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayu_Khandro

Who ChNN mentions often when he seaks about the dark retreat practices.

Yeti wrote:I've looked, but I can't seem to find it at present, but I heard Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche in an online video say there were termas currently being revealed, but there was a lot of scepticism regarding the tertons, so they were not revelling them publicly..


Seems like the best thing to do, to me.
If this is a virtual sangha, do we achieve virtualization instead of realization?
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Sherlock » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:06 pm

There is an interesting chapter of the public book "Dzogchen Teachings" by ChNNR about dag snang and termas. He gives examples of Mingyur Dorje's as well as Dudjom Lingpa's dag snang teachings and calls his own Dance and Song of the Vajra dag snang revealed in dreams.
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Re: Most recent terma?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:26 am

flavio81 wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:I seem to remember ChNN saying in a webcast that his teachings are not, strictly speaking, termas but come from dreams of clarity. Does no one else remember hearing this?


Yes, he has mentioned this in many retreats. But referring to some teachings like longsal teachings.


Oh yes, sorry, I wasn't so clear; but, yeah, by "his" I indeed meant his Longsal teachings.
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