Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby monktastic » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:00 am

I haven't had a pointing out instruction, but I think there's some possibility that I've recognized rigpa in my life. I know I would need to meet a guru to be sure, but I'm wondering: for those of you who commonly have lucid dreams, and have recognized rigpa, is it easier or harder for you to recognize rigpa within them?

For about twenty years starting around age 4, I had quite frequent lucid dreams, within which I would marvel at the sheer vivid, clear, blissful cognizance of the experience. I remember even then noting that the experience was unlike anything I commonly experienced during waking life. That's when I first developed a passion for understanding what this "mind" or "awareness" thing is, and it led me many years later to Mahamudra.

Anyway, now I'm on retreat, and have three months during which I don't have to worry about when I wake up. I intend to re-learn the skill of lucid dreaming which I've partially lost. I've read the three major books on Dream Yoga (by ChNNR, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, and Alan Wallace), but I don't recall anyone addressing the question of recognizing rigpa from within the dream. There's a tiny snippet in "Carefree Dignity" by Tsokyni Rinpoche, but not much.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby alpha » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:15 am

monktastic wrote:I haven't had a pointing out instruction, but I think there's some possibility that I've recognized rigpa in my life. I know I would need to meet a guru to be sure, but I'm wondering: for those of you who commonly have lucid dreams, and have recognized rigpa, is it easier or harder for you to recognize rigpa within them?

For about twenty years starting around age 4, I had quite frequent lucid dreams, within which I would marvel at the sheer vivid, clear, blissful cognizance of the experience. I remember even then noting that the experience was unlike anything I commonly experienced during waking life. That's when I first developed a passion for understanding what this "mind" or "awareness" thing is, and it led me many years later to Mahamudra.

Anyway, now I'm on retreat, and have three months during which I don't have to worry about when I wake up. I intend to re-learn the skill of lucid dreaming which I've partially lost. I've read the three major books on Dream Yoga (by ChNNR, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, and Alan Wallace), but I don't recall anyone addressing the question of recognizing rigpa from within the dream. There's a tiny snippet in "Carefree Dignity" by Tsokyni Rinpoche, but not much.


why are you using a computer if you are in retreat?
And what kind of retreat is that where you want to do things for wich you haven't had instructions for yet?
Personally i would never do a retreat when i am unsure about the practice i want to do or i dont have yet a familiarity with the practice involved.
As regards rigpa i dont know what to say but probably the safest route to get clarification is to find and talk to a teacher who can give you guidance on this matter.
And as far as i know when you do retreat you have to get up very early and not sleep your way through a retreat and not worry when to wake up.
AOM
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:50 am

Monktastic,

You could very well have some connection to these dream yoga, Mahamudra, and Dzogchen practices you've mentioned here and elsewhere from former lives. Considering your level of interest with these practices and the experiences you've described elsewhere, this is probably quite likely. Be that as it may, though, it's really crucial to receive transmission from, and take up the guidance of, a qualified Mahamudra or Dzogchen master in this life. Without concrete realization, our familiarity from former lives alone is not guaranteed to enable us to keep from avoiding pitfalls and errors on the path. I know you've said elsewhere that that is desirable but seems somewhat unlikely due to the scarcity of such lamas in your area of the UK, but actually you're in luck since Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche openly teaches Dzogchen quite regularly via webcast and you can also speak with him via email to ask important practice questions and get clarification of one's knowledge. And neither Rinpoche nor anyone even asks for a dime for this remarkable service--it simply comes down to one's own heart's gratitude for his generosity compelling one to donate to support the webcasts. Then, since he teaches in Europe very frequently, you can maybe save up over time and eventually even meet him in person in the near future as well. I would highly, highly recommend taking advantage of this brilliant master.
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby monktastic » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:22 pm

Thank you kindly for the replies.

Alpha, I am aware that my "retreat" is somewhat unconventional, to put things lightly. I didn't mean to say I'm doing a formal Mahamudra retreat. It's more that I've taken off time to deeply investigate something I've been putting off for far too long.

Pema Rigdzin, thank you for that suggestion. I am actually in the USA. Another retreatant here has advised me similarly, and strongly recommends I visit her in Scotland next summer to talk with Lama Yeshe at Samye Ling (as well as Tsoknyi Rinpoche, when he's around, and perhaps others). She's even tried to help me get in contact with other Rinpoches, so far with little success. I hope I can "follow my nose" until that time. My lama here seems to agree that resting in (my nearest facsimile of!) the natural state is probably a fine thing to do for now.

I wasn't aware that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche was so accessible (particularly online). And money is not a concern for me right now. If you think approaching him online is a reasonable thing to attempt, then I agree that that would be fantastic. And if offering compensation would be sensible (and not gauche), well, his time is worth more than any wealth I could offer anyway... (Please feel free to respond over PM if you have time and that is appropriate).

:namaste:
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby oldbob » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:33 am

monktastic wrote:Thank you kindly for the replies.

Alpha, I am aware that my "retreat" is somewhat unconventional, to put things lightly. I didn't mean to say I'm doing a formal Mahamudra retreat. It's more that I've taken off time to deeply investigate something I've been putting off for far too long.

Pema Rigdzin, thank you for that suggestion. I am actually in the USA. Another retreatant here has advised me similarly, and strongly recommends I visit her in Scotland next summer to talk with Lama Yeshe at Samye Ling (as well as Tsoknyi Rinpoche, when he's around, and perhaps others). She's even tried to help me get in contact with other Rinpoches, so far with little success. I hope I can "follow my nose" until that time. My lama here seems to agree that resting in (my nearest facsimile of!) the natural state is probably a fine thing to do for now.

I wasn't aware that Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche was so accessible (particularly online). And money is not a concern for me right now. If you think approaching him online is a reasonable thing to attempt, then I agree that that would be fantastic. And if offering compensation would be sensible (and not gauche), well, his time is worth more than any wealth I could offer anyway... (Please feel free to respond over PM if you have time and that is appropriate).

:namaste:


:namaste:

You are getting very good suggestions.

My 2 cents is that if you are with a Lama at the moment, in a retreat, then you should do whatever practice that he / she suggests for you.

If you are someone who can do many things at once, then tune in to ChNNR, and integrate that with whatever you are doing on the retreat.

If "simpler is better " for you, then do one thing at a time. If you are going to take teachings from more than one teacher, keep the practices separate and don't make a big ministrone soup of everything.

That doesn't work.

If you tune in at the times listed in a recent post in the ChNNR, Dzogchen Community thread, you can hear ChNNR. There is a new retreat starting tomorrow. If the video drops out, go to the audio which is more reliable.

Hope you have headphones.

http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php

For lucid dreaming from a Dzogchen point of view:

Dream Yoga News Upcoming Events

website ; dreamyoga.net

Dream Yoga Forum with Michael Katz and other Lucid Dream Trainers on Buddhist Radio Saturday September 24th 12: Noon Eastern Standard Time, 9 AM PDT, 5 PM GMT

Live Stream at ; archetypeevents.com/dreamtalk

Extending mindfulness into the Dream State– with Michael Katz Thursdays October 4--25

@ Tibet House 22 West 15th Street New York City

Event Details

Thursdays October 4th, 11th, 18th and 25th ; 2012 at 07:00 -9:00PM

About the Events

These classes are intended to enhance creativity, self-exploration and spiritual/psychological growth through powerful techniques of lucid dreaming derived principally from the Tibetan dream yoga tradition. Lucidity within the dream state represents exceptional potential, and is a gateway to mastery of the dream process.

Participants will join Dr. Katz as he induces lucidity within a dream by combined deep relaxation training and induction. Afterword we will deepen our dream material through a process of psychodrama. Attendance at previous sessions is not required . There will be a portion of the program where attendees are invited to meditate laying down. Comfortable clothes & an exercise or yoga mat are suggested but not provided.

General:$25 per class/ Members:$22.50
SERIES (Thursdays, 10/4; 11, 18, & 25) General:$100./ Members:$90. click here to register
http://www.tibethouse.us/programs/full- ... 641560/114
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gateways Of The Mind Conference London , England
http://www.archetypeevents.com/programme

November 3-5 London , England

A 2-day conference plus focused workshops, a unique event bringing together leading researchers, authors and experienced practitioners to explore and discuss Lucid Dreaming and Out of Body Experiences.

Presenting both ancient and modern theories and practices from different cultures including western science, Tibetan Buddhism and the Toltec / Mexica (Aztec) tradition - this event will offer the attendee both the opportunity to learn from the experts and pioneers, discuss personal experience and then integrate the teachings into their practice with careful guidance and advice.

Gateways Of The Mind will demonstrate how we can all benefit from the non-physical realities. All 5 speakers have between them thousands of first hand accounts of personal exploration, and will talk extensively about their practices and techniques whilst demonstrating how everyone can explore these non-physical realities and what the practical benefits can be to all of us in today’s world and on our spiritual path.

In addition to the 1 & 1/2 hr presentations from each of the speakers on key themes there will also be 2 mini-workshops included in the 2-day conference .

Wrapping up the conference will be a live 'question time' panel debate involving all 5 of the speakers. Utilizing a mix of event key theme questions and direct audience participation - this will be your chance to put questions directly to the experts.

For Lucid Dreaming form a Mahamudra point of view:

http://charliemorley.com/

Charlle is based in London, but teaches regularly in the States.

Michael is based in NYC.

I highly recommend both Charlie and Michael.

Isn't it wonderful!

ob
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby monktastic » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:30 pm

Thanks, Oldbob!

ChNNR's webcasts are at an unfortunate time for me, and I missed this morning's session. Picking it up partway may be bad, right? Either way, I've requested to sit in on his November transmission.

Funnily enough, the Tibet House in NYC is apparently 3 (short) blocks from where I just moved 3 weeks ago! Oops! Won't be getting back there soon.

And I just watched Charlie's talk. Brilliant!

Thanks for the resources. I'm sure I'll find something to pursue.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby monktastic » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:25 am

An interesting quote regarding rigpa and lucid dreaming (from Present Fresh Wakefulness, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche):

During the dream state, first become aware that you are in the dream state. If you are then able to recognize the nature of mind and sustain it for as long as it takes to flap a long Tibetan sleeve seven times, you will also be able to be liberated in the bardo state. The most important point here is to train while we are still alive and are awake, then check your progress in the dream state.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby morganktaylor » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:11 pm

research into lucid dreaming has shown that the vast majority of us would be able to do it if we were willing to practice regularly. I recently published a post comparing inception and lucid dreaming. Where lucid dreaming is different is that you are in fact asleep, but are in a state where you are very much able to control what happens in your dreams.

You can check it out at: http://realityplex.com/inception-is-it- ... t-a-movie/

Let me know what you think!

Thanks
Morgan
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby oldbob » Wed May 22, 2013 4:46 pm

morganktaylor wrote:research into lucid dreaming has shown that the vast majority of us would be able to do it if we were willing to practice regularly. I recently published a post comparing inception and lucid dreaming. Where lucid dreaming is different is that you are in fact asleep, but are in a state where you are very much able to control what happens in your dreams.

You can check it out at: http://realityplex.com/inception-is-it- ... t-a-movie/

Let me know what you think!

Thanks
Morgan

See

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=10128#p127797

above for sources for training in lucid dreaming.

Yes, I also believe that everyone can do lucid dreaming. I also believe that everyone can find enlightenment in this life.

Of course the Inception theory is true. Happens all the time. Psychic self-defense is part of Dzogchen 101.

Dr. Shen, once told me how HH, the former, Karmapa entered his dream and told him he should sponsor a new monastery. Dr. Shen sponsored the monastery.

If HH the Karmapa enters your dream that is one thing. If it is someone else disguising themselves as HH, that is another. Perhaps you need to ask a question, that only you and the other in your dream knows the answer to, before you act on something in a dream.

Realityplex is a great site! :twothumbsup: :twothumbsup: :twothumbsup:

Realityplex shows real :heart: and is dealing with issues of our time that others avoid / find uncomfortable, in clear and useful prose.

http://realityplex.com/about/

Interesting that a near death experience was a contributing cause: kind of gets your attention, and sets priorities.

Welcome aboard Morgan. You bring a lot of hard won insight to DW and I look forward to your posts.

ob
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby flavio81 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:27 pm

Monktastic,

Ch. NN Rimpoche has more than once said that during an episode of a dream where you have conciousness of the dream, you should take advantage to do a practice, and your practice can be much, much effective (i'd guess in part due to no more attachment to the body involved). Rimpoche has also given some Dream Yoga retreats in the past.

As pointed above, Michael Katz, ChNN student, gives Dream Yoga seminars. He has also authored a book on Dream Yoga which i would recommend. I had the pleasure to spend some time with MK and to be his translator here at one of the Dream Yoga seminars. His seminar on Dream Yoga here (Lima, Peru) was clear, very interesting, and practical, and he's a very likeable person.

monktastic wrote:Thanks, Oldbob!

ChNNR's webcasts are at an unfortunate time for me, and I missed this morning's session. Picking it up partway may be bad, right? Either way, I've requested to sit in on his November transmission.


Don't forget that Namkhai Norbu gives retreats all over the world, so once he switches to another hemisphere he'll be closer to your timezone. Also, he's one of the very last tibetan-born, tibetan-educated Dzogchen masters, so try to see him while he's with us... time flies, you know :(
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby flavio81 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:29 pm

morganktaylor wrote:research into lucid dreaming has shown that the vast majority of us would be able to do it if we were willing to practice regularly.

:thumbsup:

Definitely.
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby monktastic » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Much has changed since my OP, in terms of making a connection with the lineage.

Anyway, it seems to me that lucid dreaming can be a way to recognize mind's nature quite powerfully. Specifically, in the very instant of becoming lucid, there's a sense of a light turning on; of consciousness remembering itself and becoming awake to itself.

Then, usually, an "I" takes over the fantastic world, and it becomes every bit as samsaric as the waking state.

I will be circumspect and not equate this recognition with the rigpa of Dzogchen, but in that first instant, there's really something worth noticing.

Not sure if this is used as a specific practice anywhere.
This undistracted state of ordinary mind
Is the meditation.
One will understand it in due course.

--Gampopa
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby oldbob » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:41 am

monktastic wrote:Much has changed since my OP, in terms of making a connection with the lineage.

Anyway, it seems to me that lucid dreaming can be a way to recognize mind's nature quite powerfully. Specifically, in the very instant of becoming lucid, there's a sense of a light turning on; of consciousness remembering itself and becoming awake to itself.

Then, usually, an "I" takes over the fantastic world, and it becomes every bit as samsaric as the waking state.

I will be circumspect and not equate this recognition with the rigpa of Dzogchen, but in that first instant, there's really something worth noticing.

Not sure if this is used as a specific practice anywhere.


Your job as a Dzogchen practitioner is to do your best to practice non-dual awareness, 24/7, without distraction.

So when you are distracted, your job is to gently re-center your awareness on awareness, 24/7.
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby Saoshun » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:19 pm

oldbob wrote:
monktastic wrote:Much has changed since my OP, in terms of making a connection with the lineage.

Anyway, it seems to me that lucid dreaming can be a way to recognize mind's nature quite powerfully. Specifically, in the very instant of becoming lucid, there's a sense of a light turning on; of consciousness remembering itself and becoming awake to itself.

Then, usually, an "I" takes over the fantastic world, and it becomes every bit as samsaric as the waking state.

I will be circumspect and not equate this recognition with the rigpa of Dzogchen, but in that first instant, there's really something worth noticing.

Not sure if this is used as a specific practice anywhere.


Your job as a Dzogchen practitioner is to do your best to practice non-dual awareness, 24/7, without distraction.

So when you are distracted, your job is to gently re-center your awareness on awareness, 24/7.


the idea of practicing non-dual awareness is like idea of keeping ocean wet. Let go of this idea that there is something to keep, you are always in non dual awareness no matter what you doing or non doing. all others is just ideas and concepts that make you believe that it's otherwise.

It's like hearing, can you practice hearing? No. It's happens, the hearing can be only clearer if awareness will not be absorbed in the mind chit-chat which springs from false idea of "me"
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:11 am

Saoshun wrote:the idea of practicing non-dual awareness is like idea of keeping ocean wet. Let go of this idea that there is something to keep, you are always in non dual awareness no matter what you doing or non doing.

In terms of Dzogpachenpo, one does not always have a knowledge of non-dual wisdom, which is something that must be initially recognized, and then familiarized with. Aspirants who are beginning on the path (and sentient beings in general) are endowed with a dualistic cognition that is burdened by affliction, that is why their noetic capacities are referred to as vijñāna [rnam shes]... only awakened beings possess non-dual jñāna [ye shes].

This is why Longchenpa states [per Malcolm]:

    The essence of mind is an obscuration to be given up. The essence of vidyā is a wisdom to be attained.

Saoshun wrote:It's like hearing, can you practice hearing? No. It's happens, the hearing can be only clearer if awareness will not be absorbed in the mind chit-chat which springs from false idea of "me"

You are simply describing the clarity of mind [gsal ba]... this is not the so-called "non-dual awareness" of Dzogchen, at least not until it is recognized as non-arisen and purified of afflictive obscurations.
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby Saoshun » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:48 am

In terms of Dzogpachenpo, one does not always have a knowledge of non-dual wisdom, which is something that must be initially recognized, and then familiarized with.


Ass and carrot on the stick.

only awakened beings possess non-dual jñāna [ye shes]


There is no beings to become awakened

You are simply describing the clarity of mind [gsal ba]... this is not the so-called "non-dual awareness" of Dzogchen, at least not until it is recognized as non-arisen and purified of afflictive obscurations.


Thinking that you can remove your confusion is symptomatic of the confusion.
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:21 am

Saoshun wrote:Ass and carrot on the stick.

If you want to insist that dualistic mind is primordial wisdom then be my guest, it makes no difference to me.

Saoshun wrote:There is no beings to become awakened

From the ultimate standpoint of the highest wisdom there are no beings to awaken or be liberated, but clinging to such a view from the standpoint of the relative is nothing more than nihilism.

The fact that all things are ultimately devoid of inherency and free from extremes does not mean one is in recognition of that fact, and it certainly does not mean one has a complete knowledge of it. Even then, principles such as awakening, the basis, path and result etc., are never negated on the conventional level.

Saoshun wrote:Thinking that you can remove your confusion is symptomatic of the confusion.

Confusion must be overturned through direct recognition of dharmatā, and then habitual tendencies and karmic traces must be exhausted, only then is one free of affliction.

In any case, you are either unfamiliar with Atiyoga or your view is simply lacking, but in either case your sentiments are not in line with this teaching. What you are advocating for is called allowing the view to overtake the conduct, a crippling error that if uncorrected can compromise your chances of liberation altogether.
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby oldbob » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:09 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Saoshun wrote:Ass and carrot on the stick.

If you want to insist that dualistic mind is primordial wisdom then be my guest, it makes no difference to me.

Saoshun wrote:There is no beings to become awakened

From the ultimate standpoint of the highest wisdom there are no beings to awaken or be liberated, but clinging to such a view from the standpoint of the relative is nothing more than nihilism.

The fact that all things are ultimately devoid of inherency and free from extremes does not mean one is in recognition of that fact, and it certainly does not mean one has a complete knowledge of it. Even then, principles such as awakening, the basis, path and result etc., are never negated on the conventional level.

Saoshun wrote:Thinking that you can remove your confusion is symptomatic of the confusion.

Confusion must be overturned through direct recognition of dharmatā, and then habitual tendencies and karmic traces must be exhausted, only then is one free of affliction.

In any case, you are either unfamiliar with Atiyoga or your view is simply lacking, but in either case your sentiments are not in line with this teaching. What you are advocating for is called allowing the view to overtake the conduct, a crippling error that if uncorrected can compromise your chances of liberation altogether.


:namaste:

:good: all.

From each dimension (philosophical view), both are correct.

From the POV of the non-dual absolute there is nothing to say, nor could one if one tried (like writing on air or water.)

Not even one word of, it is, it isn't, neither or both.

So Saoshun, can you put your hand in the (philosophical) fire?

:focus:

If so, then if you have the karmic dream of burning, you can integrate and not be burned.

In lucid dreaming there is no attachment or rejection to what occurs, only non-dual awareness that does not call itself anything.

Not even MU!

MU!
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby Saoshun » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:53 pm

In lucid dreaming there is no attachment or rejection to what occurs, only non-dual awareness that does not call itself anything.


Try to fit elephant into jar.
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Re: Lucid dreaming and rigpa

Postby oldbob » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:48 pm

Saoshun wrote:
In lucid dreaming there is no attachment or rejection to what occurs, only non-dual awareness that does not call itself anything.


Try to fit elephant into jar.



Yes, and jar into elephant!

ALL concepts / philosophies / words - are equally accepted and spontaneously freed in Dzogchen.

This is the famous "one taste."

Where there are no attachments or rejections, everything that occurs, or doesn't occur, is OK.

Then you can stay quietly or sing the song of the Cuckoo.

Please to remember that words are not contemplation unless integrated into non-dual awareness.

Then there is nothing to say, or any harm, in what arises or doesn't.

http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/cuckoos_song.htm

Nice words about Dzogchen and evolution and how :focus: a dream can become a treat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY9O4M8DS7c
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