Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

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Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Luke » Mon May 25, 2009 6:03 pm

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... states.htm

I admit that all these cool extra techniques are part of what attracts me to Vajrayana, although I know they aren't very important compared to being kind to all living creatures and attaining Enlightenment. I know my lama would probably just give me a disgruntled look if I mentioned this kind of stuff right now. It's still cool, however.

I especially like the idea of being able to read while you sleep. :zzz: :reading: I wonder if you have to keep the lights on for this to work? I'm not sure if one's dream body can read in the dark.

The part about "mixed states of existence" was pretty cool too. I wonder if Jimi Hendrix was half-deva?

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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Dazzle » Mon May 25, 2009 8:04 pm

.
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I must confess they weren't the reasons I was attracted to Vajrayana.

My teacher told us " If you want to learn magic or have fantastic experiences - go and look for a magician, this isn't the right place for you,"

:anjali:
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Luke » Mon May 25, 2009 9:01 pm

Dazzle wrote:.
I must confess they weren't the reasons I was attracted to Vajrayana.

My teacher told us " If you want to learn magic or have fantastic experiences - go and look for a magician, this isn't the right place for you,"

Yes, I am familiar with that viewpoint. However, can you honestly say that you don't find any of this interesting? Most people would enjoy experiencing something fantastic and I don't think they deserve severe condemnation for this fact. Marpa could do all kinds of interesting things. Who wouldn't enjoy being like him?

I didn't say that this was the only reason I was attracted to Vajrayana, but I'd be lying if I said I had no interest in any of it. I don't think it's so horrible. Ancient Buddhist masters would occasionally display siddhis to promote Buddhism and to inspire their students. That's mainly what I gain from the idea of these things: inspiration.
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Eternal Spirit » Mon May 25, 2009 9:07 pm

Dear Luke

The Eternal Spirit is consummate in extra bodily states.

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The Eternal Spirit speaking through the Lord Buddha advised as such:

"Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten?

[5] "He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds.

[6] "He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far.

[7] "He knows the mind of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own mind.

[8] "He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion. Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details.

[9] "He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.

Kayagata-sati Sutta


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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Dazzle » Mon May 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Luke wrote:
Dazzle wrote:.
I must confess they weren't the reasons I was attracted to Vajrayana.

My teacher told us " If you want to learn magic or have fantastic experiences - go and look for a magician, this isn't the right place for you,"

Yes, I am familiar with that viewpoint. However, can you honestly say that you don't find any of this interesting? Most people would enjoy experiencing something fantastic and I don't think they deserve severe condemnation for this fact. Marpa could do all kinds of interesting things. Who wouldn't enjoy being like him?

I didn't say that this was the only reason I was attracted to Vajrayana, but I'd be lying if I said I had no interest in any of it. I don't think it's so horrible. Ancient Buddhist masters would occasionally display siddhis to promote Buddhism and to inspire their students. That's mainly what I gain from the idea of these things: inspiration.


Hi Luke,

With respect, the purpose of my practice has never been to be able to have fantastic experiences or do ''interesting things', (and I didn't say such things were horrible or severely condemn anyone). Actually I probably stopped having fantasies of being Superwoman with superpowers when I was about 10.

I am of course aware of many different accounts of siddhi. Can you give me some reliable quotes refering to ancient Buddhist masters displaying siddhi specifically for the purpose of promoting Buddhism, please?

Many thanks

Dazzle :alien:
Last edited by Dazzle on Tue May 26, 2009 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Eternal Spirit » Mon May 25, 2009 11:41 pm

Luke wrote:I wonder if Jimi Hendrix was half-deva?

Dear Luke,

The Eternal Spirit also manifests as the celestial musican or a deva of the gandhabba realm.

Image

In our Tibetan Wheel of Life, the Lord Buddha appears playing a lute in the deva realm.

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The Eternal Spirit also manifest through Jimi Hendrix, as Jimi revealed in Axis Bold as Love. As the Lord Buddha said: "Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one."

Image

The Eternal Spirit manifest as Jimi Hendrix because his music was so beautiful, so pure, so melodic, the highest.
Image

However, in its incarnation as Jimi Hendrix, the Eternal Spririt was thoroughly defeated by Mara & his daughters.

Image Image Image Image
Last edited by Eternal Spirit on Tue May 26, 2009 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Dazzle » Tue May 26, 2009 12:06 am

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Aaaah, poor Eternal Spirit ...yet you never really die.
.

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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Heruka » Tue May 26, 2009 1:34 am

illusory body can also manifest from simple meditation. I think Berzin is a tad over blowing the "advanced stage" part.
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby thornbush » Tue May 26, 2009 6:32 am

Nothing like the siddhi of self conquest and final liberation.
All other samsaric cultivation and use of siddhi just enhances one's root in the 3 poisons of greed, hatred and ignorance. Let's not mistaken the 'side dishes' for the main course or take the road signs as the end of the journey.

Namo Amitabha Buddha!
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Luke » Tue May 26, 2009 10:33 am

Dazzle wrote:Hi Luke,

With respect, the purpose of my practice has never been to be able to have fantastic experiences or do ''interesting things', (and I didn't say such things were horrible or severely condemn anyone). Actually I probably stopped having fantasies of being Superwoman with superpowers when I was about 10.



Dear Dazzle,

Okay, let me be more clear. I didn't intend to simply bounce negativities back and forth with you. Perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully. If I upset you in some way, I apologize.

The main purpose of my practice is not to have fantastic experiences. My main goal is to one day realize the true nature of my mind and reality (okay, this might be a fantastic experience, but it's the most important one) and to teach others to do the same. To me, the extreme accuracy with which Buddhism describes the mind and reality is what is special about it. What appeals most to me about Tibetan Buddhism is its approach of simultaneously developing wisdom and compassion and its myriad tools for developing the mind.

Yes, I know that you didn't say that being interested in paranormal powers was horrible. However, I know that many people who practice Vajrayana (at least publicly) say basically that anyone who is interested in such things is an idiot; this is what I disagree with and this is what I was reacting against. It's possible to be both an ethical, mature person and be interested in siddhis. One gains morality points in the eyes of other Vajrayana practioners by publicly expressing disdain and grave concern about these things; however, these same people who criticize these things are often most interested in the advanced practices of the Six Yogas of Naropa, Dzogchen, and Chöd which do indeed have some fantastic elements themselves.

Dazzle wrote:.
My teacher told us " If you want to learn magic or have fantastic experiences - go and look for a magician, this isn't the right place for you,"

I don't mean any disrespect towards your teacher, but I'd like to respond to this.

If what he meant by "magician" was simply a stage magician like David Copperfield, then this is completely different. This type of magician does not possess any paranormal abilities, and therefore could teach nothing interesting to seekers of the occult.

If your teacher meant a non-Buddhist with paranormal abilities by the word "magician," then where would anyone find a person who knows as much about these things as masters of Tibetan Buddhism do (except perhaps Bön practitioners, who are very similar)? As far as I know, there simply aren't any non-Vajrayana practioners who know these things. Ancient Tibetan lamas always seemed to display greater powers than mere "magicians": this is why seekers of the occult want to study with them. Reading Tarot cards in a New Age bookshop is a poor substitute. Even Aleister Crowley's abilities paled in comparison to those of great lamas.

Once my own lama said, "Buddhism isn't about learning 'tricks.' " This of course is true, but the word 'tricks' trivializes the significance of siddhis to many people. To a great lama with great powers and a very high viewpoint, siddhis are indeed merely 'tricks' because he/she can do them easily and sees how they are of minor importance compared to attaining Enlightenment.

However, to many people, experiencing first-hand, reliable proof of paranormal phenomena might well be the most important event in their lives. If these things were easy to do and experience, everyone would be doing them, but clearly they are not. Experiencing proof of paranormal things beyond the scope of modern science has the capacity to radically transform a person's view of the world and shows them the possibilities which lie within the universe and the mind. In this sense, these things are not mere 'tricks.'

Also, lamas are human too, and I think that some of them who can't do these things might be jealous of those who can, just like lots of guitar players without a lot of technique complain that some other guitar players play "too fast."

Dazzle wrote: I am of course aware of many different accounts of siddhi. Can you give me some reliable quotes refering to ancient Buddhist masters displaying siddhi specifically for the purpose of promoting Buddhism, please?

http://www.dharma-media.org/ratnashripj ... bwang.html
Drubwang Rinpoche has accomplished the highest state of meditative realization. Occasionally he has performed miracles in order to inspire the disciples of Lord Buddha Shakyamuni - especially for Vajrayana practitioners, and in particular for the Drikung Kagyu lineage...

...One day Drubwang Rinpoche traveled with a couple of his attendants to the district of Manali, and visited some very remote places. One area he visited used to be a Buddhist place, but because it was so remote and had lots of snowfall in the winter, over time there were no longer any teachers or lamas available there to teach. It had become place unknown to Buddhists. He found that there were still some ancient temples walls, paintings and a prayer wheel there. However, the prayer wheel was no longer turning and the doors were all closed up by a stone wall. There were only these signs of the past Buddhist activities, but no longer were these temples or sacred prayer wheels being maintained or taken care of. When Drubwang Rinpoche arrived in this remote area, many people came to see him and receive his blessings. He asked them to open up the blocked windows and doors to reveal the old prayer wheel hidden inside. The people were very curious why he was opening up this old prayer wheel. After they had done as he asked, and everything had been cleared away, Drubwang Rinpoche sat down outside the doors to the large prayer wheel and he began to meditate. The people there also joined his meditation. After about 15 to 20 minutes, the prayer wheel began to spontaneously turn. The people began to make prostrations and their devotion to him began to increase. Drubwang Rinpoche stayed there for a couple of months and gave many teachings and personal advice to the people there. During that time the people were very devoted and made a lot of offerings to him. When it is was time for Drubwang Rinpoche to leave that place, he left all the donations he had received there to the people in order for them to restore the old monasteries and ancient prayer wheel.
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Luke » Tue May 26, 2009 10:41 am

thornbush wrote:Nothing like the siddhi of self conquest and final liberation.
All other samsaric cultivation and use of siddhi just enhances one's root in the 3 poisons of greed, hatred and ignorance. Let's not mistaken the 'side dishes' for the main course or take the road signs as the end of the journey.

Namo Amitabha Buddha!

Yes, yes, I agree, but the side dishes can often be very delcious! The road to enlightenment is a very long and hard one--why not learn a few cool things along the way? And abilities like being able to read sutras while sleeping and being able to meditate while sleeping are directly useful for Buddhist practice. These techniques help us use time efficiently which would otherwise be wasted.

Eternal Spirit wrote:
Luke wrote:I wonder if Jimi Hendrix was half-deva?

However, in its incarnation as Jimi Hendrix, the Eternal Spririt was thoroughly defeated by Mara & his daughters.

Hehehe. ES, you cause me to practice "laughter yoga." :rolling:
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Dazzle » Tue May 26, 2009 11:23 am

.
Hi Luke,

First of all, let me say that this reply is meant only with kindness. I have been involved with Tibetan Buddism offline for many years.

Buddhism most certainly isn't about learning "delicious" occult side dishes. When we are on the path of practice we may encounter new experiences and 'abilities' but they are still of the nature of samsara and certainly don't arise through wanting them.

There are no short-cuts, we have to keep practising.


Also, lamas are human too, and I think that some of them who can't do these things might be jealous of those who can, just like lots of guitar players without a lot of technique complain that some other guitar players play "too fast."



Sorry, but that's mere pointless speculation on your part, Luke.

With respect, I don't feel there's much value in me saying anything further at this point.

Be well and happy -and good luck with your practice,

Dazzle :smile:

.
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Dazzle » Tue May 26, 2009 12:33 pm

'
Dear Luke,

For your further consideration:

After practising the intensive" Hen Meditation" recommended to me by Eternal Spirit a while ago,
I was able to spontaneously and miraculously manifest this delicious dish of eggs!

Image


You should try it sometime!


Kind wishes,

Dazzle :alien:
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Luke » Tue May 26, 2009 9:22 pm

Dazzle wrote:.There are no short-cuts, we have to keep practising.

Yes, I agree. From what I've read, all the interesting stuff only starts happening when one realizes the true nature of one's mind (such as while practicing Tögal) and it takes a long time to get to this stage. Hopefully, I'll get there one day.

About the eggs: Perhaps you are now ready to write the Hen-vajra Tantra.
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Dazzle » Tue May 26, 2009 9:40 pm

.


Perhaps you are now ready to write the Hen-vajra Tantra



Image


CLUCK !
.
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed May 27, 2009 11:16 pm

Dazzle wrote:I am of course aware of many different accounts of siddhi. Can you give me some reliable quotes refering to ancient Buddhist masters displaying siddhi specifically for the purpose of promoting Buddhism, please?

Many thanks

Dazzle :alien:


Dear Dazz,

The fifth Dalai Lama, right before he disrobed, displayed a siddhi to inspire faith. Probably because he was in the process of disrobing, he didn't want for people to lose faith. He urinated over a cliff and then drew the urine back up to him through the air.

I don't have a specific quote offhand, but if you reeeeeally want it I can find it :smile:

Best,
Drolma
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Wed May 27, 2009 11:22 pm

As a general comment about the subject, I believe that the normal teaching is that little things like this may crop up along the way. But teachers emphatically warn (as Dazz mentioned) that it's not the path, actually a distraction from the path.

Kindly,
Ngawang

:namaste:
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Dazzle » Thu May 28, 2009 12:03 am

Ngawang Drolma wrote:
Dazzle wrote:I am of course aware of many different accounts of siddhi. Can you give me some reliable quotes refering to ancient Buddhist masters displaying siddhi specifically for the purpose of promoting Buddhism, please?

Many thanks

Dazzle :alien:


Dear Dazz,

The fifth Dalai Lama, right before he disrobed, displayed a siddhi to inspire faith. Probably because he was in the process of disrobing, he didn't want for people to lose faith. He urinated over a cliff and then drew the urine back up to him through the air.

I don't have a specific quote offhand, but if you reeeeeally want it I can find it :smile:


Best,
Drolma


Dear Drolma,

Goodness me, that's a strange way to inspire faith - Lets hope it wasn't windy at the time!


Dazz xx
:mrgreen:
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby thornbush » Thu May 28, 2009 6:01 am

Dazzle wrote:.


Perhaps you are now ready to write the Hen-vajra Tantra



Image


CLUCK !
.

Behold the realised Hen Vajra Tantra Master, H.E KFC (enquire at any of their outlets for empowerments) :rolleye:
Image
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Re: Extra-bodily States in Buddhism

Postby Ngawang Drolma » Thu May 28, 2009 6:23 am

Dazzle wrote:Dear Drolma,

Goodness me, that's a strange way to inspire faith - Lets hope it wasn't windy at the time!


Dazz xx
:mrgreen:


Hi Dazz,

You know, the urine-aspect of that story struck me a little too :lol:

Windy day! heehee

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