Forceful Zhine

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Forceful Zhine

Postby Mikeliegler » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:38 am

I'm having trouble keeping focused on the tibetan "A" symbol. I can keep my mind on the "A" and when thought's pop up I can keep from following them. My problem is The letter A starts to get blurry on me after a minute or so. Is it OK to let the A get blurry so long as a thought's are not not given attention?
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby heart » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:38 am

Mikeliegler wrote:I'm having trouble keeping focused on the tibetan "A" symbol. I can keep my mind on the "A" and when thought's pop up I can keep from following them. My problem is The letter A starts to get blurry on me after a minute or so. Is it OK to let the A get blurry so long as a thought's are not not given attention?


Learning to visualize is an art, closely connected with understanding something about your own mind. Don't push forcefully, you just get very tensed, just let it come as long and as clear as it want to. Think of an ice-cream cone (or your mother or anything else you know well), see that was easy. Visualization should be like that, light and free from strain.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Mikeliegler » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:09 pm

heart wrote:Learning to visualize is an art, closely connected with understanding something about your own mind. Don't push forcefully, you just get very tensed, just let it come as long and as clear as it want to. Think of an ice-cream cone (or your mother or anything else you know well), see that was easy. Visualization should be like that, light and free from strain.

/magnus


Magnus

So what your saying is that seeing the actual Tibetan "A"'s not the aim of this practice. I just need to just visualize the "A" in my mind? I'm still stuck on first base without a teacher.

Mike
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby heart » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:47 pm

Mikeliegler wrote:
heart wrote:Learning to visualize is an art, closely connected with understanding something about your own mind. Don't push forcefully, you just get very tensed, just let it come as long and as clear as it want to. Think of an ice-cream cone (or your mother or anything else you know well), see that was easy. Visualization should be like that, light and free from strain.

/magnus


Magnus

So what your saying is that seeing the actual Tibetan "A"'s not the aim of this practice. I just need to just visualize the "A" in my mind? I'm still stuck on first base without a teacher.

Mike


Mike, I am not a teacher so don't take what I say to seriously. I just wanted to give you a hand with the visualization. There is huge amount of very advanced visualizations in the Tibetan traditions. In order to do them properly I gave you some suggestions above. Try to understand how easy it is to visualize something you know well and then try to apply that to your practice. That might mean that you have to get more familiar with the white Ah and tigle, right? Don't stress about visualizations, it is like learning how to swim or riding a bicycle, take small steps.

As for the practice of white Ah tigle, ChNNR gives instructions for it every retreat.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Mikeliegler » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:53 pm

heart wrote:

Mike, I am not a teacher so don't take what I say to seriously. I just wanted to give you a hand with the visualization. There is huge amount of very advanced visualizations in the Tibetan traditions. In order to do them properly I gave you some suggestions above. Try to understand how easy it is to visualize something you know well and then try to apply that to your practice. That might mean that you have to get more familiar with the white Ah and tigle, right? Don't stress about visualizations, it is like learning how to swim or riding a bicycle, take small steps.

As for the practice of white Ah tigle, ChNNR gives instructions for it every retreat.

/magnus


Magnus

Thank you for your help. Please forgive me. I hope I'm not giving you the wrong impressions myself. I'm just throwing out some questions for the community on this forum. In hopes I may find a few gems of knowlege. I will look into ChNNR for more on this. That's more than I knew before I posted. I'm still open for any more advice on this.

:thanks:

Mike
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Lhasa » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:30 pm

Hi Mike,
I'd suggest that you write the letter A over and over and over. That helps to visualize it. Also draw a large A, large enough that you can trace it with your finger. Or trace the letter in sand or water.
Another method is to look at the A for five seconds or so, then close your eyes and you'll see the after-image. Look at that for five seconds, then open your eyes and and look at it again...repeat again and again, blink, blink, blink and the image will be stronger.
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:44 pm

Lhasa wrote:Hi Mike,
I'd suggest that you write the letter A over and over and over. That helps to visualize it. Also draw a large A, large enough that you can trace it with your finger. Or trace the letter in sand or water.
Another method is to look at the A for five seconds or so, then close your eyes and you'll see the after-image. Look at that for five seconds, then open your eyes and and look at it again...repeat again and again, blink, blink, blink and the image will be stronger.

Thats what I was taught too.
I was never very 'good' at it...the fact is we each operate in different ways, and visualisation will never come easy to some....Just keep on buggering on as Winston Churchill said, but in a relaxed way...
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby asunthatneversets » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:22 pm

Mikeliegler wrote:I'm having trouble keeping focused on the tibetan "A" symbol. I can keep my mind on the "A" and when thought's pop up I can keep from following them. My problem is The letter A starts to get blurry on me after a minute or so. Is it OK to let the A get blurry so long as a thought's are not not given attention?


If you're looking at the image of an A and it gets blurry after awhile that's ok, I actually like to slightly cross my eyes on purpose and rest with that blurred vision. Better to start with the visual support before jumping to no support. If you get distracted just bring your attention back to the A. As soon as you notice you're distracted just drop the train of thought at focus on the A. In time you'll find you'll become less distracted. Eventually you'll be able to hold your attention on the A with no distraction, that is a good time to start zhiné without support where you just focus on space.
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Mikeliegler » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:41 pm

Lhasa wrote:Another method is to look at the A for five seconds or so, then close your eyes and you'll see the after-image. Look at that for five seconds, then open your eyes and and look at it again...repeat again and again, blink, blink, blink and the image will be stronger.


Hey Lhasa

Thanks for this one!!! I like the short blink method the best so far.

:twothumbsup:

Mike
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Mikeliegler » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:52 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:If you're looking at the image of an A and it gets blurry after awhile that's ok, I actually like to slightly cross my eyes on purpose and rest with that blurred vision. Better to start with the visual support before jumping to no support. If you get distracted just bring your attention back to the A. As soon as you notice you're distracted just drop the train of thought at focus on the A. In time you'll find you'll become less distracted. Eventually you'll be able to hold your attention on the A with no distraction, that is a good time to start zhiné without support where you just focus on space.


asunthatneversets

I was not sure about the blurriness affecting my practice. I seem to have gotten to that point where I can sustain my awareness on the A and keep from letting thought's carry me off with them. I feel good and comfortable in this state but I still can't visualize without some support. I'm going to try Lhasa's suggestion and use the blink method.

Thank You Kindly

:namaste:

Mike
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Mikeliegler » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:03 pm

Simon E. wrote:Thats what I was taught too.
I was never very 'good' at it...the fact is we each operate in different ways, and visualisation will never come easy to some....Just keep on buggering on as Winston Churchill said, but in a relaxed way...


I'm finding some good support here and finding what works best for me on this forum. Thank you for your input and I like the old Bulldog's encouragement too.

:cheers:

Mike
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Lhasa » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:25 pm

Mikeliegler wrote:
Lhasa wrote:Another method is to look at the A for five seconds or so, then close your eyes and you'll see the after-image. Look at that for five seconds, then open your eyes and and look at it again...repeat again and again, blink, blink, blink and the image will be stronger.


Hey Lhasa

Thanks for this one!!! I like the short blink method the best so far.

:twothumbsup:

Mike


:)
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:28 am

Mikeliegler wrote:asunthatneversets

I was not sure about the blurriness affecting my practice. I seem to have gotten to that point where I can sustain my awareness on the A and keep from letting thought's carry me off with them. I feel good and comfortable in this state but I still can't visualize without some support. I'm going to try Lhasa's suggestion and use the blink method.

Thank You Kindly

:namaste:

Mike


Yeah the blurriness is no issue, in fact space can be used as a support for your zhine. If you gaze two palm widths from the tip of your nose, your eyes are crossed anyways and everything is blurry, visions begin to manifest that way. Hold your hands up side by side right at the tip of your nose and then look to the far side of the outer hand, locate that spot and then drop your hands and keep the gaze there... extremely blurry! But good stuff.
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby asunthatneversets » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:33 am

Check out "Stilling The Mind: Shamatha Teachings From Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence", good book with a lot of info on zhine and other practices; benefits, methods, advice etc.
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Mikeliegler » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:01 am

asunthatneversets wrote:Check out "Stilling The Mind: Shamatha Teachings From Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence", good book with a lot of info on zhine and other practices; benefits, methods, advice etc.


asunthatneversets

Thank you kindly I marked the book to order on Amazon. Can't wait to see the book now. In the meantime I'm going to try the blinking method Lhasa recommend. I hope these post can help others just starting out.


Mike
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby WmBainbridge » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:27 am

Huh. What I've generally been taught is that the main work in shine with an object is to develop the ability to place the mind somewhere and have it stay there. Blurriness, therefore, is not really a problem, and the whole set of considerations involved in deity visualization isn't implicated. Really, the less conceptualizing the better. There's also a kind of "Dzogchen shine," and similar visualizations are used as a kind of "Dzogchen preliminaries," but that doesn't seem to be what you're talking about.
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Adamantine » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:59 am

Mike, where did you get the meditation instructions to begin this practice?

It seem some forum members here think you are supposed to be visualizing, and some using an external support.

I have no idea because it all depends on who gave you the instruction, what lineage it is and what is the specific practice you are doing.

To me it sounds like you are trying to do basic Tibetan-style calm-abiding meditation (shiné) with an actual external object (a written syllable AH) as support. Is that correct?

I am familiar with one shiné practice that may be related to what you are asking about. But it would help to know more before I know if it's the same.

You see, many people have received different instructions according to different lineages or different levels of practice, they could all think you are talking about what they are familiar with and give you a well intentioned answer.. but it could just lead you into more confusion. This is why a teacher is so important.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby flavio81 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:37 am

Mikeliegler wrote:I'm having trouble keeping focused on the tibetan "A" symbol. I can keep my mind on the "A" and when thought's pop up I can keep from following them. My problem is The letter A starts to get blurry on me after a minute or so. Is it OK to let the A get blurry so long as a thought's are not not given attention?


Yes, that would be exactly "shine"...
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby Mikeliegler » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:47 pm

Adamantine wrote:Mike, where did you get the meditation instructions to begin this practice?

It seem some forum members here think you are supposed to be visualizing, and some using an external support.

I have no idea because it all depends on who gave you the instruction, what lineage it is and what is the specific practice you are doing.

To me it sounds like you are trying to do basic Tibetan-style calm-abiding meditation (shiné) with an actual external object (a written syllable AH) as support. Is that correct?

I am familiar with one shiné practice that may be related to what you are asking about. But it would help to know more before I know if it's the same.

You see, many people have received different instructions according to different lineages or different levels of practice, they could all think you are talking about what they are familiar with and give you a well intentioned answer.. but it could just lead you into more confusion. This is why a teacher is so important.


Adamantine

Here is a link to what I'm trying to learn.

http://www.plotinus.com/zhine_tibetan_d ... a_copy.htm

:reading:

Mike
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Re: Forceful Zhine

Postby flavio81 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:38 pm

Mikeliegler wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Mike, where did you get the meditation instructions to begin this practice?

It seem some forum members here think you are supposed to be visualizing, and some using an external support.

I have no idea because it all depends on who gave you the instruction, what lineage it is and what is the specific practice you are doing.

To me it sounds like you are trying to do basic Tibetan-style calm-abiding meditation (shiné) with an actual external object (a written syllable AH) as support. Is that correct?

I am familiar with one shiné practice that may be related to what you are asking about. But it would help to know more before I know if it's the same.

You see, many people have received different instructions according to different lineages or different levels of practice, they could all think you are talking about what they are familiar with and give you a well intentioned answer.. but it could just lead you into more confusion. This is why a teacher is so important.


Adamantine

Here is a link to what I'm trying to learn.

http://www.plotinus.com/zhine_tibetan_d ... a_copy.htm

:reading:

Mike


Um... You should do these practices if you have received the transmission to do them from a qualified lineage holder of the Dzogchen teachings...
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