Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby catlady2112 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:31 am

When I review the outline of Lamrim (which I understand is recognized by the Gelupka, Kagyu and Nyigma schools), I do not see any mention of Mahamudra (or Dzogchen for that matter). Does it fall into the "Emptiness Section" in the "Great Scope"?
catlady2112
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:44 pm

Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby smcj » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:56 am

catlady2112 wrote:When I review the outline of Lamrim (which I understand is recognized by the Gelupka, Kagyu and Nyigma schools), I do not see any mention of Mahamudra (or Dzogchen for that matter).

Lam Rim is Mahayana practice. How quickly they get into tantra & Mahamudra depends on the school. Gelugpas have extensive academic and Paramitayana practices (such as Shantideva), then tantra and Mahamudra. Kagyus get into tantra quite quickly, relatively speaking, and then Mahamudra. Nyingma have a very abbreviated Lam Rim and get into tantra & Dzogchen.

Does it fall into the "Emptiness Section" in the "Great Scope"?

Yes, they are emptiness practices.

Those are overly simplistic answers to you question, and as such not 100% accurate, but it is close enough to give you some perspective.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
smcj
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby conebeckham » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:52 pm

From among the Paramitas, which are the basic instructions on the path of great scope, or Mahayana, there is the Paramita of Prajna, or "wisdom." This wisdom can be subdivided into two- the wisdom of lack of phenomenal identity, and the lack of self-identity. Within that latter topic, one finds various approaches-in mainstream Gelukpa approach, one relies on a variety of analytical approaches. The other schools use these analyses, as well. That is mainstream Mahayana.

Mahamudra and Dzogchen fall in this category, relating to the wisdom of absence of identity, and in particular, to the cognizant-yet-empty Nature of Mind. Although in analysis, self or mind cannot be found, at the same time this does not resolve into a blank nothingness. Although mind cannot be found, Mind's Nature, as the cognizant awareness, able to know, cannot be denied. This is the basis of Mahamudra, and of Dzogchen, though these practices and instructions are not solely part of the Paramitayana. They are Tantric.

In Paramitayana prajna practice, one rests after the "non-finding," non-identity, while in mahamudra and Dzogchen, one rests in Mind's Nature. Some say an "idea" of emptiness should be "held," as a reminder, while those who practice Mahamudra and Dzogchen do not recommend an "idea" of emptiness.
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2786
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby smcj » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:19 pm

Yes, as Cone says, there are two types of Mahamudra:

The Mahayana/Paramitayana kind, and
The Vajrayana/tantric kind.

They are the same but different. The analogy I like to use is the difference between an acoustic guitar and an electric guitar. They're basically the same, but one has a whole lot more 'oomph' to it.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
smcj
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby Jinzang » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:46 am

Sutra mahamudra is non-conceptual meditation on the nature of phenomena. If you read Atisha's Lamp on the Path, you will see that this sort of non-conceptual meditation is discussed in verses 54-58, even if the term mahamudra is not used.

Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche quoted Atisha while teaching on mahmudra: "Conceptualization is great ignorance and makes one fall into the ocean of samsara."
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
Jinzang
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:11 am

Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby Astus » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:05 pm

"Thus, the explicit teaching of this Mahamudra is the Madhyamaka of emptiness free from discursiveness as taught in the sutra system. Ultimately, Maitrıpa’s key notion of “mental nonengagement” or “mental disengagement” is nothing but the subjective side of what is called “freedom from discursiveness.” The only way in which the mind can engage in this “object”—the absence of discursiveness— is precisely by not engaging in or fueling any discursiveness, thus letting it naturally settle on its own accord. In other words, the absence of reference points can be realized only by a nonreferential mind, since this is the only perceptual mode that exactly corresponds to it. This is stated many times in the sutras."
(Center of the Sunlit Sky, p. 55)

Brunnhölzl goes through the subject of Mahamudra's relation to Madhyamaka in that chapter on "The Transmission of Madhyamaka from India to Tibet". Also, if you look at the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, Gampopa brings up Mahamudra where he is discussing the practice of prajnaparamita.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4168
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby smcj » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:57 pm

Brunnhölzl goes through the subject of Mahamudra's relation to Madhyamaka in that chapter on "The Transmission of Madhyamaka from India to Tibet".

Which book of Brunnhölzl's?
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
smcj
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby Astus » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:41 pm

smcj wrote:Which book of Brunnhölzl's?


It's the Center of the Sunlit Sky that I quoted from.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4168
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Where does Mahamudra fit in the Lamrim outline?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:32 pm

So, I think we've answered the Question, about where Mahamudra fits into the Lam Rim outline.
But just one more slightly tangential, and slightly not, point.....Mahamudra, and in fact "Prajna," must embrace all the other Paramitas, as well, in order for them to be "perfect."
May any merit generated by on-line discussion
Be dedicated to the Ultimate Benefit of All Sentient Beings.
User avatar
conebeckham
 
Posts: 2786
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA


Return to Mahamudra

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

>