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SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic - Dhamma Wheel

SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

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SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:26 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:30 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:09 pm

"This is not the right time for a question, Kassapa. We have entered among the houses."

Spk: Why does the Blessed One refuse three times? In order to inspire reference; for if theorists are answered too quickly they do not show revernece, but they do if they are refused two or three times. Then they wish to listen and develop faith. Also, the Master refused in order to create an opportunity for the ascetic's faculty of knowledge to ripen.

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:43 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:24 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby Sam Vara » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:08 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:10 pm

Thanks Sam, These are great comments and questions. I think it's really useful to try to look deeply into those lines and try to tease out what the Buddha is trying to get at. But I really can't think of any useful things to say right now... Maybe later... :thinking:

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:49 am

"How is it then, Master Gotama: is there no suffering?"

"It is not that there is no suffering, Kassapa; there is suffering."

"Then is it that Master Gotama does not know and see suffering?"

"It it not that I do not know and see suffering, Kassapa. I know suffering, I see suffering."


What exactly are we to make of this statement?
Presumably "I know suffering" means "I understand suffering", not "I experience suffering"?

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:07 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:39 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:05 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby vinasp » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:46 pm

Hi Mike,

"It it not that I do not know and see suffering, Kassapa. I know suffering, I see suffering."

My interpretation of this is that it can be understood in two ways.

!. The Buddha remembers what suffering is like, from his life before
his awakening.

2. The Buddha knows and sees suffering in other people, almost everyone
that he encounters - including Kassapa.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:52 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:29 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:02 pm


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby daverupa » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:23 pm

Last edited by daverupa on Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:31 pm

Thanks Dave.

That's either a better way of expressing my "plausible option one", or perhaps it is slightly different from what I was imagining it, so it's "plausible option three". Does it seem different from Ven Nanananda's interpretation to you, which I was characterising as "plausible option two"?

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby daverupa » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:11 am


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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: SN 12.17 Acela Sutta: To the Clothless Ascetic

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:41 am



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