the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:26 pm

seeker242 wrote:
With the main issue being that some types of food are more harmful and other types are less harmful!



This is false. All food production is equally harmful.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nilasarasvati » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
seeker242 wrote:
With the main issue being that some types of food are more harmful and other types are less harmful!



This is false. All food production is equally harmful.


Yeah but people will extrapolate something you don't necessarily mean from that.
I.E. they will take it to the nihilistic extreme.

Moreover I disagree with the word "equally". The amount of harmful actions required to feed a pig includes both the harm that came from raising the grain to feed it and the horrific acts of the factory farm, the butcher, etc. Whereas if I eat a bowl of cheerios, I'm only dealing with the harm that came from raising the grain.

I mean neither is ideal and they are both propping each other up but it seems silly to say that they are "equally" harmful.
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Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby TaTa » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:27 pm

I need to gain some weight!!! HELP!!!! =P
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Nilasarasvati » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:30 pm

Umm..
Eat lots of sugars and fats.
Don't excersize.

Ice cream is the swiftest path.
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:42 pm

Muscle or fat (or both)? Problem with Nilas method is cholestreol and diabetes. If you answer the first question you will get the (correct) advice that you need.
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby TaTa » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:57 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Muscle or fat (or both)? Problem with Nilas method is cholestreol and diabetes. If you answer the first question you will get the (correct) advice that you need.

Both?
Of curse muscle is better but i'm really skinny so fat wouldn't hurt also.
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:10 pm

Do you exercise? If so what sort of exercise? Are you naturally skinny? How old are you? Are you a man or a woman? Is your job physical or sedentary? Do you have a thyroid "problem"? Have you checked whether you have worms? What does your diet mainly consist of? Do you have any food allergies? Am I asking too many questions? :tongue:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby TaTa » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:20 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Do you exercise? If so what sort of exercise? Are you naturally skinny? How old are you? Are you a man or a woman? Is your job physical or sedentary? Do you have a thyroid "problem"? Have you checked whether you have worms? What does your diet mainly consist of? Do you have any food allergies? Am I asking too many questions? :tongue:


I dont exercise regulary. I do walk quite a lot.
Im naturally skinny but loss 5kg in the last 6 months.
Im a man.
Sedentary.
I dont know what thyroid is XD
I havent, i should,.
I usually eat quite a lot of vegetabels with rice and some beens. Some pasta also.
No you are not.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Stewart » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:28 pm

Does it though? Do you have the appropriate wisdom to discern the difference? Or are you just emotionally attached to your view?

Go back a few dozen pages and read what Malcolm wrote regarding this topic. It solid and emotionally neutral advice.

I was vegetarian for years, but started eating meat on advice of my Tibetan Dr... Vegetarians are amongst the most emotionally charged and self righteous group of people I have met. Obviously not all, but certainly a large proportion. It just swapping one set of concepts or another... I got fed up with all the bullshit.
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:31 pm

TaTa wrote:I dont exercise regulary. I do walk quite a lot.
Brisk walking is actually one of the best ways to lose weight.
Im naturally skinny but loss 5kg in the last 6 months.
Were you sick in the last 6 months? Did you change your eating/drinking habits? Were you under excessive stress?
I dont know what thyroid is XD
A well functioning thyroid gland is really important for weight regulation.
I usually eat quite a lot of vegetabels with rice and some beens. Some pasta also.
Cheese? Eggs? Fried food? Junk?
Any food allergies?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby TaTa » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
TaTa wrote:I dont exercise regulary. I do walk quite a lot.
Brisk walking is actually one of the best ways to lose weight.
Im naturally skinny but loss 5kg in the last 6 months.
Were you sick in the last 6 months? Did you change your eating/drinking habits? Were you under excessive stress?
I dont know what thyroid is XD
A well functioning thyroid gland is really important for weight regulation.
I usually eat quite a lot of vegetabels with rice and some beens. Some pasta also.[/qute]Cheese? Eggs? Fried food? Junk?
Any food allergies?


No. I wasnt sick in the last 6 months.
I did lose like 2kg on a goenka retreat.
I wasnt on stress.
I do eat cheese but almost no fried, or junk food.
No food alergies that i know of
Last edited by TaTa on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:58 pm

For example, people get really emotionally freaked out in this culture about a certain Chinese practice of eating dogs. As if eating dogs is worse than eating cows, or pigs. (Pigs are debatably smarter than dogs).

Now, the craziest part is that approx. 3-4 million cats and dogs are killed in the USA every year.. shelter animals, systematically slaughtered. The number of cats and dogs eaten in China a year is roughly 6-8 million.

Wouldn't it be more efficient for US citizens to make use of the flesh (yes by eating it) of the 3-4 million cats and dogs that are otherwise murdered for population control reasons?

Think how many pigs and cows might be saved, if people started making use of these excess corpses.

But, there is no rationality to any of this. It is mostly pure emotion, not even compassion.

The system is not going to change any time soon.. There is too much room for waste, and too much momentum. To generate compassion is always good, whether one is eating an animal's already dead flesh, or not.

I think the main argument for abstaining from eating factory farmed animals has to do with the environmental impact, which is a cost of maintaining these populations in the first place: deforestation, methane production, and water degradation. But there are tons of environmental disasters looming from all forms of agriculture, -the biggest potential being GMO crops ala Monsanto, etc.
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Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:02 pm

Okay.

I would recommend, if you do not have a gluten, lactose or nut allergy, to: eat more bread with each meal, drink a couple of glasses of milk per day (accompany the milk with a banana) and increase your intake of nuts (try to avoid peanuts, go with dry roasted and unsalted varieties).

These are easy (you can always have a pack of nuts with you to nibble on during the course of the day) and cheap options that won't have the adverse side effects of Nila's recommendation.

Lifting weights, or body weight exercises (push up, chin ups, etc...) will help you put on muscle instead of fat weight.

If you find your weight keeps dropping go get a thyroid test done (well actually, go see a GP and get their advice, they will probably recommend thyroid and blood tests).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:10 pm

Adamantine wrote:Wouldn't it be more efficient for US citizens to make use of the flesh (yes by eating it) of the 3-4 million cats and dogs that are otherwise murdered for population control reasons?
They could just sell them to China and start making a dent in the 2.46 trillion they owe them! :tongue:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nilasarasvati » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:00 pm

Stewart wrote:Does it though? Do you have the appropriate wisdom to discern the difference? Or are you just emotionally attached to your view?

Go back a few dozen pages and read what Malcolm wrote regarding this topic. It solid and emotionally neutral advice.

I was vegetarian for years, but started eating meat on advice of my Tibetan Dr... Vegetarians are amongst the most emotionally charged and self righteous group of people I have met. Obviously not all, but certainly a large proportion. It just swapping one set of concepts or another... I got fed up with all the bullshit.


Yeah I read what Malcolm said. I fail to see how it invalidates my observation that on a meal-by-meal basis, agrobusiness + factory farming kills more, harms more than agrobusiness without factory farming. They're both interconnected, interdependent industries, but I never said abstaining from meat was saving the planet.

As far as vegetarians being self-righteous goes...I think it's an unfair generalization. And a really lame rationalization for eating meat--I don't know if it is, but otherwise I don't know why you would have mentioned it.

With that in mind, just because 60% of all Western Buddhists are dosspots doesn't mean you shouldn't be Buddhist.

And in my experience, "meat lovers" can be strangely self-righteous when they encounter Vegetarians. I'm frequently asked to defend, explain, or justify my choice not to eat meat...as if I'm putting somebody out or really ruining their day. It's the same way people who don't drink get accosted and asked to justify that all the time, as if it really screws with other people's lives. Since I took a vow to abstain from eating meat six months ago, I've been constantly fussed over, interrogated, and pitied because of my choice. Being "on trial" whenever I have a cold or something because my family has this 1950s mentality about nutrition and think it must be because I don't get enough beef. It's weird.

I don't see anything wrong with people eating meat, but I do see something bizarre, addictive, and self-deceptive about dissing vegans/vegetarians, minimizing their choices, and pissing all over the reasoning for their choices. It seems like it all has more to do with feeling better about yourself than helping the vegetarian.
Last edited by Nilasarasvati on Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nilasarasvati » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:04 pm

also, if I have to have a thesis for anybody to kick down, I'd say this: Freeganism is the best dietary stance when it comes to ethics/morality. Look it up. I dumpstered a significant portion of my food for years and we would only eat meat if it was free/being thrown away. It totally corresponds with Adamantine's pretty awesome critique of how we prize doggies and refuse to eat them. I ate a raccoon once...etc.

I'm just a vegetarian in memoriam of a departed Buddhist friend. It's about the vow/merit more than the ethics/politics behind it.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:19 pm

Nilasarasvati wrote:Whereas if I eat a bowl of cheerios, I'm only dealing with the harm that came from raising the grain.



For example us say you are eating organic cheerios. Organic oats are generally fertilized with bone meal, all from slaughtered animals.

You cannot abstract your Cheerios out of the loop. It just wont work.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nilasarasvati » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:24 pm

Malcolm:
You cannot abstract your Cheerios out of the loop. It just wont work.


I agree. It's impossible to dualistically separate agrobusiness/factory farming.

"but I never said abstaining from meat was saving the planet."

Do you really think though that there is no difference between eating a bowl of cheerios and eating a big bowl of hamburger helper?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Nilasarasvati » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:26 pm

Because it seems like Chatral Sangye Dorje does.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:31 pm

Nilasarasvati wrote:
Do you really think though that there is no difference between eating a bowl of cheerios and eating a big bowl of hamburger helper?


Yes.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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-- Uttaratantra
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