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did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation? - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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robertk
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby robertk » Sat May 09, 2009 2:58 am


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robertk
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby robertk » Sat May 09, 2009 3:09 am


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Ben
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby Ben » Sat May 09, 2009 3:54 am

Hi Robert

You're always welcome here. Even though I may disagree with your point of view regarding vipassana meditation and SN Goenka, I respect and welcome your opinion. You never fail to give me a great deal to think about whether it is in regard to the Abhidhamma, the Dhamma generally or whether it is related to the technique propagated by my teacher. Your presence here is an asset to Dhamma Wheel - not just to those new to the path but to those who are more experienced and those, like me, who may even disagree with you!

I also want to make it clear that the discussion of my teacher and Vipassana Meditation as taught by him is not a prohibited subject here at Dhamma Wheel. Criticism of the technique that my teacher has propagated is not breaking some unspoken rule. I just ask that criticism of a teacher's method is done with respect.

What I want to point out that is that for many of us who have practiced under SN Goenka, that our understanding which has been developed through the experience of meditation courses and/or sustained daily practice is as valid, even if different, from your point of view.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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tiltbillings
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 09, 2009 5:31 am


MMK23
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby MMK23 » Sat May 09, 2009 11:56 am

I think some of the participation in this thread has been dangerously close to sectarianism/intellectual mob mentality. Before Ba Khin, Mahasi Sayadaw, SN Goenka, etc, a conversation about "doing vipassana" would have presented extraordinarily different view points to the ones clearly popular amongst some practitioners here. Robertk's views are neither exegetically or traditionally marginal, and the views he has expressed here may well be more representative of "lay buddhism" for a good part of the time since the Buddha's death. Yet here, his view is clearly radical, which to my mind implies that clearly Theravadin orthodoxy for most people participating in this thread has been shaped by a modernist discourse of meditation, which is remarkably for being reframed here as an appeal to the authority of the suttas. I think this is a very strange case of intellectual imperialism and if nothing else, I would urge participants to have a slice of humble pie before weighing in with the burdens of revisionist certainty and sectarian audacity. I say this with kindness as an appeal to a functioning way of having discussions about things. I would be most disappointed if more people other than Robertk feel marginalised in this forum simply for being Theravadin a way that the majority is clearly not.

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Ben
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby Ben » Sat May 09, 2009 12:08 pm

Thank you MMK for your post.
Firstly, there is no sectarianism going on. And if anyone feels marginalised here at Dhamma Wheel, all they need to do is raise their concerns with me or one of my colleagues or the administrators. The only people who may have anything to worry about are those that behave in ways that are at odds with the terms of service. While I thought I made it very clear in my response to Robertk above, no one here is punished or singled out for his or her view.
Secondly, the thread had been moved from the Classical Theravada to the more appropriate Theravada Meditation forum.
Thirdly, there is no intellectual imperialism going on. We are merely having a discussion regarding Vipassana Meditation.
If you have any further concerns regarding this thread, please raise it with a moderator or an administrator.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Jechbi
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby Jechbi » Sat May 09, 2009 2:50 pm


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cooran
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby cooran » Sat May 09, 2009 8:48 pm

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Ben
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby Ben » Sat May 09, 2009 8:56 pm

Hi all

I think its time we got back on topic.
Thanks for your cooperation.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Jechbi
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby Jechbi » Sat May 09, 2009 11:03 pm

Yes, Ben, you're right. I wish to say, thank you Chris for the honest assessment. I can understand how it looks to you and others, and I take your words to heart.

Since my original post is no longer visible, people may have an incorrect understanding of what it said. In my opinion, it was respectful. I can understand why others might not have viewed it that way, however. I did not object when it was taken down. I also wish to note that I invited Robert on several occasions to PM me.

I fully accept this criticism, and I hope to be called out like this if I engage members in a way that seems inappropriate. We all come to this board with different expectations. I'm doing my best, and I'll try to do better.

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kc2dpt
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby kc2dpt » Sun May 10, 2009 4:48 am

Someone asked if the Buddha taught vipasanna.
Someone (inevitably) answered 'no'.
Someone (inevitably) got upset at that answer.
Did anyone really expect something other than this to happen?
:coffee:
- Peter


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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 10, 2009 5:15 am


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Jechbi
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby Jechbi » Sun May 10, 2009 6:14 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 10, 2009 6:23 am


MMK23
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby MMK23 » Sun May 10, 2009 6:43 am

The only point I want to make now is this: prior to the modernist vipassana revolution, much of what we take to be orthodox now would have been anything but. I don't think there is any evil in folks choosing what paths they want to take, and I for one am not going to try a propose a homogeneous Theravada magga. There is no shame in the fact that these movements are modern and recent and at their most legendary a "rediscovery" of a special technique passed through the Burmese masters originally from the Buddha. But if we imbue the orthodox with a particular value and then project that orthodoxy back through time, then we devalue 2 millenia of a diversity of magga and praxis philosophy.

Having experience with Mahasi style meditations, I don't find them to be evil or necessarily destructive. And at their best I found them revealing and beneficial. I moved away from them because I believed that for me they only reified my own sense of egoism and amounted to a sort of self-hypnosis. However, I believe these outcomes were relevant to my background, psychological, and mental effluent, and I certainly do not project that view with certainity on to any other practitioners of modern vipassana practices, many of whom have found the practices to be profoundly illuminating. I say this as a disclaimer, because I don't have an antagonistic view to these practices and I'm wary that some folks feel like they're under attack. You're not.

But to the simple question: did the buddha teach vipassana meditation? The short answer is no, as far as vipassana meditation refers to the modernist vipassana practices. But this leads to other questions,

Does vipassana meditation cultivate the Buddha's teaching?

Clearly the answer to this question is yes as far as the practitioners are concerned. And clearly this is not just an optimistic answer, but is an answer that pays serious attention to the Pali Canon and varieties of Pali exegesis.

Is vipassana meditation a serious and committed application of the noble eightfold path?

Clearly the answer to this questions is yes as far as the practitioners are concerned. And here's the rub: there's no shame in fresh interpretations of Buddhist praxis. The Buddha did not teach Buddhism, or probably a lot of what for 2 millenia has passed as Buddhism. "Buddhism" is the living tradition of trying to heed the dhamma of the Buddha. As Theravada Buddhists, we are committed to realising the lessons of the Buddhadhamma in the Pali Canon, those scriptures we hold to be the closest to the words from the Noble One's mouth. All Buddhisms, ever, are a serious and committed attempt to understand and realise the Buddhadhamma. This is why there is no shame in the reality that modernist meditative movements have no analogues for probably the best part of 2 millenia. What these practices are, are serious, committed, faithful, loving attempts to understand and realise the Buddhadhamma. And so in that sense they are exactly what the Buddha taught.

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tiltbillings
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 10, 2009 7:04 am


MMK23
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby MMK23 » Sun May 10, 2009 8:08 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 10, 2009 8:27 am


MMK23
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby MMK23 » Sun May 10, 2009 10:28 am


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cooran
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Re: did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation?

Postby cooran » Sun May 10, 2009 10:59 am

I'm astounded at the continuation of personal remarks about a highly respected Dhamma-farer, by Moderators and member.

The topic is "did the buddha teach vipasanna meditation".
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---


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