Buddhism and Manhood.

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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:36 am

"gregkavarnos"]Actually, I should have been a litle clearer. A human being that achieved liberation as a consequence of his past actions and his practice during his final incarnation. I consider him a human being even after his enlightenment. He still had to eat, drink, sleep, shit, he got sick, tired, old, etc... An enlightened human being.


if a man were to become Enlightened he would cease to be a human, he would acquire the 32 physical features of a Buddha, and possess the Dharma Body.
so either way it goes the Buddha is not a human.in the Mahayana case not only was Shakyamuni not born a human he manifested in the Dharma body.
now this is what is taught in Mahayana, you might not accept it but it is what is taught.

Nirvana sutra Chapter 7.
"In this
Jambudvipa, in the Lumbini gardens, I manifested birth from the womb of Mother Maya. After
birth, I took seven steps to the east and proclaimed: "I am the most honoured and best of all
men, devas and asuras." My parents and men and devas, on witnessing this, were joyous beyond
words and wonderstruck. All these people said that I was a child. But, for innumerable kalpas
past, I had been segregated from any such thing. Such a body as this is the Dharma-Body,
not one born of flesh and blood, sinews, bones and marrow. Following the way of the world, I
appeared as a child."

"Everybody says
that Rahula is my son, that Suddhodana was my father and Maya my mother, that I carried
on a secular career in my life, that I enjoyed peace and happiness [as a young prince], and that
I abandoned all such things and sought the Way. People further say: "The prince of this king,
of the great clan of Gautama, renounced worldly pleasures and sought the supramundane." But
I had long since been away from worldly love and desire. I merely displayed all such things.
Everybody says that I am a man. But truth to tell, I am not. O good man! I manifest myself in
Jambudvipa and often enter Nirvana. But in truth I do not enter Nirvana at all. Yet all people
say that the Tathagata is now dying. But the nature of the Tathagata, truth to tell, eternally
does not die out. So you should know that I am one Eternal and Unchanging."



"gregkavarnos"
As an aside, and seeing how we are throwing Sutta at each other, you also find accounts like this in the Pali Canon:
AN 2.5 PTS: A i 50
Appativana Sutta: Relentlessly
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2006–2013
"Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities[1] and unrelenting exertion. Relentlessly I exerted myself, [thinking,] 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' From this heedfulness of mine was attained Awakening. From this heedfulness of mine was attained the unexcelled freedom from bondage.

"You, too, monks, should relentlessly exert yourselves, [thinking,] 'Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence.' You, too, in no long time will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will relentlessly exert ourselves, [thinking,] "Gladly would we let the flesh & blood in our bodies dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if we have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing our persistence."' That's how you should train yourselves."

Notes
1. In other words, not allowing oneself to rest content merely with the skillful qualities developed on the path. In the Buddha's biography, this point is illustrated by his refusal to rest content with the formless absorptions he mastered under his first two teachers. See MN 36.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

this is not claiming that the Buddha was human, its simply speaking about how a human would exert himself along the path to Enlightenment.
nor does it refute my original position that Shakyamuni in the Theravadan Canon was only pretending to be a worldly prince and "discover" Enlightenment in his life time.
its made very clear in the Jataka tales that he already knew the basics of Buddhism,its made very clear in his birth story that he has already walked the path, and that he sure didn't forget it.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:39 am

Dude, with all due respect, you can quit trying to sell to me because I am not buying. Thanks for going to the effort though! :thumbsup:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:44 am

gregkavarnos wrote:Dude, with all due respect, you can quit trying to sell to me because I am not buying. Thanks for going to the effort though! :thumbsup:


I'm not selling you anything, nor do you have to buy anything, whether you accept or don't accept these Mahayana teachings, wont change the fact that's what they say.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:49 am

Its not clear to me Son Of Buddha why you think that a literalist interpretation of the Pali Canon would have any currency value outside of a Theravadin forum... :shrug:
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:03 am

Simon E. wrote:Its not clear to me Son Of Buddha why you think that a literalist interpretation of the Pali Canon would have any currency value outside of a Theravadin forum... :shrug:


the quote I gave up above is actually from the Mahayana Canon
(I actually posted both the Theravadin and Mahayana teachings on the subject)
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:16 am

Son of Buddha wrote:I'm not selling you anything, nor do you have to buy anything, whether you accept or don't accept these Mahayana teachings, wont change the fact that's what they say.
Well, it's not exactly like you say is it? Coz I seem to remember you trying to pass off repackaged Pali Canon teachings as support for your (apparent) Mahayana-ist theorising.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:18 am

Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:29 pm

Simon E. wrote:Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...


you don't accept it you don't accept it, still doesn't change what is written in the Dharma texts.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:56 pm

You can probably prove just about anything from the tens of thousands of teachings contained in the Niakayas if you put your mind to it.

Point is, I don't care for your interpretation of what you think exists in the Nikayas. You have your interpretation, I have mine and the twain aren't about to meet in the near future. :shrug:

(P.S. these passages from the SN are so clear they are undeniable)
Really? So why are we disagreeing?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:01 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...


you don't accept it you don't accept it, still doesn't change what is written in the Dharma texts.

That is problematic at several levels.
If we limit ourselves for the time being to the Pali Canon, what is recorded was translated from an extinct language to an artificial language to modern languages using conventions that we can barely grasp with any certainty, but which are firmly rooted in an ancient and alien culture and recorded some six hundred years after they were supposedly uttered.
I would suggest that we don't know what was written in the Dhamma texts with any certainty.

As to the Dharma texts they are a glorious mish-mash of legend , folk myth, and poetry with here and there some echoes of a voice heard as from a distant room...
To view them as historical , or as ontological truths I would suggest, creates more problems that it solves.
So it is not what a text says that is the primary focus, but rather what it means in terms of our own lives.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:40 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:
Simon E. wrote:Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...


you don't accept it you don't accept it, still doesn't change what is written in the Dharma texts.

That is problematic at several levels.
If we limit ourselves for the time being to the Pali Canon, what is recorded was translated from an extinct language to an artificial language to modern languages using conventions that we can barely grasp with any certainty, but which are firmly rooted in an ancient and alien culture and recorded some six hundred years after they were supposedly uttered.
I would suggest that we don't know what was written in the Dhamma texts with any certainty.

As to the Dharma texts they are a glorious mish-mash of legend , folk myth, and poetry with here and there some echoes of a voice heard as from a distant room...
To view them as historical , or as ontological truths I would suggest, creates more problems that it solves.
So it is not what a text says that is the primary focus, but rather what it means in terms of our own lives.



well by that view we can literally start getting rid of anything we so chose,and replace them with our own ideas.
Enlightenment= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
Karma= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
Rebirth= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
five transmigations(hell animal,ghost, human, god)= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
Pure land= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
and the list goes on...........
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:46 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:well by that view we can literally start getting rid of anything we so chose,and replace them with our own ideas.
What you fail to undersand is that "our own ideas" is the only thing we have all been discussing (including you) all along. Views are never ultimately true, even views on the ultimate (unless, of course, you are enlightened but even when you express them to somebody that is not enlightened...)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:52 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Son of Buddha wrote:well by that view we can literally start getting rid of anything we so chose,and replace them with our own ideas.
What you fail to undersand is that "our own ideas" is the only thing we have all been discussing (including you) all along. Views are never ultimately true, even views on the ultimate (unless, of course, you are enlightened but even when you express them to somebody that is not enlightened...)



I didn't fail to understand that.
I already simply stated, accept it or dont accept it,either way thats what is written in our sutras
views of agreement or disagreement doesn't change that.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:54 pm

That is problematic at several levels.
If we limit ourselves for the time being to the Pali Canon, what is recorded was translated from an extinct language to an artificial language to modern languages using conventions that we can barely grasp with any certainty, but which are firmly rooted in an ancient and alien culture and recorded some six hundred years after they were supposedly uttered.
I would suggest that we don't know what was written in the Dhamma texts with any certainty.

As to the Dharma texts they are a glorious mish-mash of legend , folk myth, and poetry with here and there some echoes of a voice heard as from a distant room...
To view them as historical , or as ontological truths I would suggest, creates more problems that it solves.
So it is not what a text says that is the primary focus, but rather what it means in terms of our own lives.



well by that view we can literally start getting rid of anything we so chose,and replace them with our own ideas.
Enlightenment= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
Karma= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
Rebirth= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
five transmigations(hell animal,ghost, human, god)= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
Pure land= Ok..the same question applies to a literalist reading...this is a mythos assembled long after the event...
and the list goes on...........

Indeed it does. Which why we need an ongoing relationship to a teacher and a repertoire of skillful means under her or his direction. That is what is needful.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:21 pm

"Simon E."
Indeed it does. Which why we need an ongoing relationship to a teacher and a repertoire of skillful means under her or his direction. That is what is needful.


but isn't that kinda circular?
a teacher and repertoire could also be in agreement with the Birth stories "myth"

generally my opinion is you need an foundation in the sutras while having an ongoing relationship with a teacher and repertoire to help you understand and validate your said views in the sutras and help bring about realisation.

in my opinion disagreeing with the foundation(sutras) before you have come to any fruitation,knowledge of said subject can harm your future progress.

kinda like discrediting karma and rebirth cause it could be a myth before working your way up to realization of past life births.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:26 pm

That's certainly a widely held view.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:13 pm

Simon E. wrote:That's certainly a widely held view.

:namaste:
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby Leo Rivers » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:03 pm

Its not clear to me Son Of Buddha why you think that a literalist interpretation of the Pali Canon would have any currency value outside of a Theravadin forum... :shrug:


All religions have proven to grow with time and create scriptures that make mutuality exclusive claims. Buddhism as a system of self transformation (spirituality) has like all other religions progressed hand in hand with evolving descriptions of soterology (salvation means) and literary fictions (mythos). All are in the position of saying "Our assertions about unseen realms are factual, all the others are mistaken." [really?]

For instance, the Lotus School and the Shingon School both promote absolutely mutually exclusive claims as to how to stack scriptures by validity. In other words, which teachings are partially true for lesser minds or complete descriptions of the Path for superior practitioners ... ostensibly like you and me.

Delegating responsibility for choosing one Master for his set of opinions is okay but you need to understand there is no getting around the fact that there are multiple Mahayana and even Hinayana descriptions of Buddhism.

I was trained as a Nyingma School Buddhist. My Lama would discourage reading First Turning of the Wheel texts without a Master there to explain them or we would "Misunderstand them". That my friend is saying "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". That is also like chaining the latin Bible to the podium. That is also failing to do do due diligence to our conscience. Studying the texts of the Hinayana Mahayana divide 1800 years ago is a liberating revolutionary experience. Some are classical sravaka texts with an injunction to shun the monasteries for an authentic Buddhist life in the forest. They are a Mahayana as a "get back to the roots" phenomena. Some, having opened the door to a Maha Yana "greater path" add the Bodhisattva ideal of going all the way to being a Buddha. Some add making benefiting others the greatest good. Some say the Sudana took many lives to become A Buddha. Some say that was all an illusion and a play of a spiritual being who was always The Buddha. There is, as you look more closely, a dozen, no two dozen Buddhisms in the cusp between 100 BCE and 500 CE, (roughly the classical Gandhara period), They are each like ordering from the columns in a Chinese restaurant.

Only after generations did the Hinayana and Mahayana become like political parties with the official series of ideological platform planks. It was being isolated culturally into some local region of Earth that allowed the impression of there being One Consensus Hinayana and One Consensus Mahayana to exist unchallenged. The multiplicity of each and the way they could be differing recipes was not available as a fact of life you could comfortably avoid ... until modernity. Now mutually exclusive masters can be on the same panel at a college conference. The fact they promote mutually exclusive claims can't be hidden behind "Its just a difference of opinion" any more. They can't all be right. That is a modern way of avoiding the issue.

But if these are not absolute claims raised by divinity into absolute truth, but models we can modify - sutras cease to be island mindscapes each a separate place, but they become a conversation again. All of them are apocrypha. The Surangama Sutra is no less than the Heart Sutra the literature of the Silk Route. I could be writing a new sutra as we speak! Buddhism can dare to become a living region.

But, as the TV anchor invited to moderate this panel on Buddhism says "Each of use is entitled to their own opinion." he shrugs winking at the camera "It's all good". The audience breaks out in laughter and applauds. The lunch break is approaching. You know somewhere good to eat close enough to walk?


A Son of Buddha too :namaste:
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby smcj » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:26 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:As humans it basically means that we are screwed since, in contast to the case of Shakyamuni Buddha, we have been born unenlightened.

Not exactly. Enlightenment, if achieved, is retroactive. So if you become enlightened, retroactively you'll be able to see that the presence of your own enlightenment was there all along.
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Re: Buddhism and Manhood.

Postby maybay » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:37 pm

Leo Rivers wrote:I was trained as a Nyingma School Buddhist. My Lama would discourage reading First Turning of the Wheel texts without a Master there to explain them or we would "Misunderstand them".

Yeah, its like you're running an ultra-marathon and the master is the back-up van trailing with refreshments and a medical kit. He'll add Dzogchen spin whenever you get yourself in trouble trying to think to much. When it comes to scripture there's no substitute for being comprehensive, but we can't all be scholars.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
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