kirtu wrote:Minimal set of postings dealing with Vajrayana and Dzogchen and desire split from Dealing with Desire in the Mahayana forum.
MalaBeads wrote:Malcolm wrote:why is this so hard to understand?
Because understanding is not the whole of practice, Malcolm. Because we have body, speech and mind. Because if the three are not integrated, then there is no realization of what is being taught.
While it is true that i practice dzogchen, and that our mutual teacher uses the concept of integration in particular ways, please do not assume that because i have used this word here, i am speaking of dzogchen.
All the Yanas use the activity of integration in their particular method. If practitioners do not integrate what they are practicing, then the practice is not successful. Therefore those following the path of renunciation, integrate renouncing into every aspect of their body, speech, and mind. Those following the path of transformation, integrate (or transform) every aspect of their body, speech, and mind. Those practicing dzogchen, integrate the nature of mind into every aspect of their body, speech and mind. What differs is not integration but what is integrated.
So give me some credit here, Malcolm. I understand very well what is being discussed here and for the moment at least, we disagree. You are maintaining that the core method of Mahayana is the renunciation of sense objects while i am saying that is abandoning attachment to those objects.
Historically, the various Yanas have been classified as Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana. But we also hear about the Path of Renunciation, the Path of Transformation and the Path of Dzogchen. This is a little different. It categorizes Dzogchen as its own path (which i happen to agree with). I think much of what néeds to happen in this discussion is the working out of what we in the west see as the activities of the various Yanas.
Desire is at the core of the Buddhas teachings. Shakymuni Buddha understood desire to be the primary activity that kept beings suffering. It followed, over time, that various methods were developed, depending upon the circumstance of the time, to address this issue of living. So we have the method of renunciation as one way. We also have transformative methods, where intention is seen to be primary regardless of the activity. And we have specific dzogchen methods.
Because Buddhism is a rather new activity for Westerners we need to learn to be clear about what we are talking about to each other. We may all speak the same language here at Dharma Wheel (English) but it is clear to me that we do not speak the same language at all.