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Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept - Dhamma Wheel

Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Stiphan
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Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Stiphan » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:41 pm

For example, if, for some reason you don't want to be bothered, you pretend to be asleep when you're not -- do actions such as these break the 4th precept?

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Khalil Bodhi
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:18 pm

I think that this precept only concerns samma-vaca, and in particular, false speech but I could be wrong.
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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Cittasanto
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:29 pm

yes it does, if you communicate (which can be both verbal and physical) and what you communicate is misleading then you break the precept.

just the same way the first of the panca/attha sila can be broken verbally, yet it is a physical action, this can be broken through physical action also.

it comes down to the intention at the end of the day, and if you intend to break the first 4 indirectly (meaning not breaking the strict letter of the rule) (the fifth can not be broken without actually doing it oneself, but can be tarnished verbally through encouraging others to do it) it still breaks the precept, or at the very least tarnishes it.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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bodom
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby bodom » Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:32 pm

I have to agree it does. Lying can be conveyed through body language. For example someone could ask you a question that you know the answer too and you could shrug your shoulders implying you do not know. While this example may not be specifically spelled out in the standard sutta definition of wrong speech, there is still the intention to deceive so to me it is still lying.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Goofaholix » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:33 pm


David2
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby David2 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:29 pm


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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Goofaholix » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:34 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:46 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Fede
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Fede » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:42 pm

It's a form of deception.
The Buddha didn't 'not answer' because he didn't want to be bothered.
He also (afaik) did not 'pretend he didn't hear the question'.
the Buddha refrained from responding for worthwhile Dhamma-teaching reasons....

the one question you can never lie to, is 'are you asleep?'
(Or 'are you awake?')

It's a really simple thing to say,
"I'm sorry, I'm really tired, can this wait?"
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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daverupa
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby daverupa » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:18 am

Is it not the case that some brahmins and contemplatives are denigrated in the Suttas as those who "do not answer when called"? I think it was in the context of ascetic ritual being mistakenly seen as efficacious, but perhaps it connects to this topic... alas, I'm unable to find the relevant passage.

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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:28 am


chownah
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby chownah » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:50 am

Do magic tricks break the 4th precept?
chownah

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Fede
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Fede » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:48 am

"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

chownah
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby chownah » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:23 pm

Fede,
I think that how one reacts to magic tricks is dependent on many things and a strong influence is culture...and age. Children are often not aware that it is slight of hand for instance....and I think that in India for example there are a lot of people who believe that it is really magic in certain magical things that are done in some ceremonies there. Some Catholics believe that the wine actually becomes blood during communion....although I'm not declaring absolutely that this is a magic trick as I have never been Catholic and so have never taken their communion....maybe it does really change into blood....I don't know....
chownah

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Fede
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Fede » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:40 pm

Ah.
Well it would have helped the discussion if you has been more specific initially, I think. Thank you for clarifying.
The intention behind the trick is the deciding factor.
Is it to amaze, or wilfully deceive?

The bread and wine during Catholic communion, is not seen as a 'magic trick' but as divine transformation and a question of faith.
most Catholics I know can't get their head round this, and don't even try. To most, it's symbolic rather than factual.
being an ex-Catholic, i cogitated on this for some time. then stopped, as i really couldn't be asked to consider it any more....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

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mirco
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby mirco » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:11 pm

"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." -

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Goofaholix
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:43 pm


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Stiphan
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Re: Does non-verbal deception break 4th precept

Postby Stiphan » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:45 pm



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