More Trungpa talk

Ramon1920
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Ramon1920 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:44 am

There's three things people are usually concerned with regarding Trungpa:

Was he a Buddha? Did he have a positive influence on his students and others: short term and long term?

Was he a Buddha?
No, he was not. Buddha's do not act like that. Crazy wisdom is when someone does something unconventional because you see benefit; what Trungpa did was not crazy wisdom.

Did he have a positive influence on his students and others short term?
No, he did not in the case of all the Trungpa affiliates I have met and known to be such. His influence destroyed their spiritual practice, some of them already having had a root guru that they broke away from.

Did he have a positive influence on his students and others long term?
Full results pending. So far no positives. Some attribute his terrible conduct to spreading Vajrayana in the West, but in reality he was taking advantage of the movement of Vajrayana that was already underway. Rather than benefit Vajrayana's image in the West, Trungpa's influence led to a generation of failures in the spiritual life, a misrepresentation of Vajrayana as immoral hedonists to this day, and a environment festering with illegitimate lamas, rinpoches, monks, tantric masters, gurus, etc. etc.

Sometimes being sharp and speaking out against this sort of thing is more important than harmony. I regularly warn young people about the dangers of falling in with people who were involved with Trungpa.

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Nilasarasvati
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:50 am

Thanks to these sweeping generalizations, the whole mystery of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche has forever been cleared up!

I apologize for my sarcasm, but your "Question and Answer" format does not lend your statements the iron-clad truthiness you might have hoped.

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Lingpupa
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Lingpupa » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:45 am

All the best
Alex Wilding
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Benchen and Back digital edition still on Amazon - see

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mandala
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby mandala » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:39 pm


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Nilasarasvati
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:31 pm


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smcj
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:57 pm

Don't take me too seriously.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:58 pm

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

Ramon1920
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Ramon1920 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:28 pm


Knotty Veneer
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Knotty Veneer » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:23 pm

I have observed in recent years that criticism of Trungpa has become more open than in the 80s and 90s. Even Pema Chodron I believe is not unequivocal in her praise any more. I think that his legacy is being re-examined and the previously more or less unchallenged view that he pretty much single-handedly turned America on to Tibetan Buddhism is being re-evaulated. Certainly, one cannot deny his influence in the creation of Naropa and Shambhala publishing and in his ability to attract attention and money in the 70s and early 80s that had a beneficial knock-on effect to other Sanghas.
However, as the baby boomer generation begins to age and die off, I wonder how much of his influence will outlast them. With each student memoir of the heady days that is published (and there are quite a few now), it seems as if his "scene" is turning more and more into a nostalgia trip. Even his many books (it seems his every utterance has been published at this point) while still full of interesting ideas, are beginning to creak at little with age and maybe do not speak with quite the same force to a new generation as they did to their parents and grandparents.
His organization under the direction of his son seems to be going off on a tangent of its own, that separates it from traditional Tibetan Buddhist schools and I think this too will contribute to an underplaying of Trungpa's role in bringing Tibetan Buddhism to America. Pema Chodron seems to be a last link with the Tibetan Buddhist Trungpa but even she is overseeing the creation of monastic tradition of sorts within Shambhala that will cut the tie with the Karma Kagyu monastic line.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:39 pm

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Stewart » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:58 pm

s.

Ramon1920
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Ramon1920 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:58 am


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dzogchungpa
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:22 am

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

Ramon1920
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Ramon1920 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:08 am

Inductive reasoning is sufficient to estimate numbers of those ruined, anything else would be impractical.

Dzog, there is in fact a logical fallacy here.
Because some information is unknown to you, all the related information is false is the fallacy
Suppose a man was to holler, "A train is coming!" as you walked along some train tracks and you responded, "Tell me something embarrassing about your friends". If he does not divulge all details does that mean there is no train coming?

I did not come here to make up detailed stories to denigrate others.
I have a lot of experience with breaking bad news to people and I am well prepared for the defensiveness and denial that often ensues.
I do not hold avoiding hurting peoples' feelings as high a priority as pointing out great dangers people might recognize as such.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:17 am

Hmm, interesting stuff. Personally I don't have anything invested here other than the fact that a couple of his books had a profound influence for me. How do you factor in people like me? I wouldn't even have bothered studying Buddhism I don't think had I not read Trungpa, I have no association with his lineage, and don't plan to..but I fully understand why his teachings are so highly regarded by some.

However, I don't think anyone's being particularly defensive, you've just utterly failed to make a compelling argument against him so far...or maybe it's more accurate to say that specifically, your argument about the effect of his legacy is so vague and undetailed that it's impossible to consider. I've no doubt there are some good arguments to be made in that vein, but yours was pretty sparse man.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:24 am

Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Nilasarasvati
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:39 am


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wisdom
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby wisdom » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:47 am


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Konchog1
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:05 am

Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats

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Nilasarasvati
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:12 am

Konchog, I hear you... I know exactly what you mean--outrageous behavior in and of itself doesn't make a Mahasiddha. But neither does outrageous behavior mean some one is a depraved, meaningless, wayward Guru.


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