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PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:33 am 
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I have just read a page dedicated to Pointing Out people into the experience of No-Self.
http://liberationunleashed.com/
You can read their e-book here : http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Gate ... ashers.pdf

What intrigues me is whether its method have a correlation with Dzogchen's Pointing Out?. Is now a time where traditional method such as preliminaries and all of its samaya all being by-passed?
Their claim as a Gateless Gatecrasher is seemed too offensive to Buddhist tradition or other traditional lineages at large.
What about Dharma Protector issue? Is it only a mumbo-jumbo to frighten people for not getting the teaching out into public space? Or is it a real issue?
Rationally, I think this is a good idea to give lights to many people in need. But intuitively, I feel the danger of degeneration and digression of the value of traditional Direct Pointing Out.

Please also read Dudjom Lingpa's "A Clear Mirror: The Visionary Autobiography of a Tibetan Master" for that many Dakinis and Dharma Protectors asked him to write precaution about degenerating age to come.

Tashi Deleg.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:34 am 
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I find nothing offensive.
I went through their processing, it is harmless enough and may do some good. Taste and know. :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:49 pm 
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Tenpa wrote:
What intrigues me is whether its method have a correlation with Dzogchen's Pointing Out?. Is now a time where traditional method such as preliminaries and all of its samaya all being by-passed?



None whatsoever.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:42 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Tenpa wrote:
What intrigues me is whether its method have a correlation with Dzogchen's Pointing Out?. Is now a time where traditional method such as preliminaries and all of its samaya all being by-passed?



None whatsoever.


I second that, it just a lot of bla bla bla. If you want direct introduction I recommend finding a Dzogchen master.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:37 pm 
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Tenpa, Liberation Unleashed is nothing like Dzogchen, and in my opinion their 'pointing out' is quite unskilled, they tend to fall into various extremes. Better to find a qualified teacher!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:50 pm 
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"Moreover, these sentient beings must have also discarded all arbitrary ideas relating to the conceptions of a personal self, other personalities, living beings and a Universal Self, because if they had not, their minds would inevitably grasp after such relative ideas. Further, these sentient beings must have already discarded all arbitrary ideas relating to the conception of the non-existence of a personal self, other personalities, living beings and a Universal Self. If they had not, their minds would still be grasping after such ideas. Therefore, every disciple who is seeking Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi should discard, not only conceptions of one's own selfhood, other selves, living beings and a Universal Selfhood, but should discard, also, all ideas about such conceptions and all ideas about the non-existence of such conceptions."
- Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra [The Diamond Sutra]


They usually fall victim to this very principle, they promote 'no-self', however 'no-self' becomes an objectified truth and therefore the idea of 'no-self' is grasped at by the mind, which ends up reifying and reaffirming the very notion they initially set out to negate. So all you have is a bunch of selves (afflicted processes of grasping and clinging) believing there isn't a self.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Liberation Unleashed does not lead to rig pa (ka dag and lhun grub non-dual)... So trying to compare it with dzogchen is quite pointless, lol.

But that does not mean they do not lead to certain insights and realizations.

Quote:
it just a lot of bla bla bla


But that is not true. That some path is not leading to rig pa and is not dzogchen does not mean it is not leading to experiences and insights.

Quote:
So all you have is a bunch of selves (afflicted processes of grasping and clinging) believing there isn't a self.


Certainly not.

Although they obviously lack clarity when it comes to discern various insights, realizations etc...

But they are not mistaking their passing thorugh gate as final liberation and are opened to further refinement and practice...

They posted good article that clarifies their situation on their main page:

Integrating View and Experience

http://liberationunleashed.com/Article_ ... ience.html


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:57 pm 
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gentle_monster wrote:

heart wrote:
it just a lot of bla bla bla


But that is not true. That some path is not leading to rig pa and is not dzogchen does not mean it is not leading to experiences and insights.


Ok, I rephrase, from a Dzogchen point it is all bla bla bla. From a worldly point of view it can be a treasure.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:48 am 
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gentle_monster wrote:
Certainly not.

Although they obviously lack clarity when it comes to discern various insights, realizations etc...

But they are not mistaking their passing thorugh gate as final liberation and are opened to further refinement and practice...

They posted good article that clarifies their situation on their main page:

Integrating View and Experience

http://liberationunleashed.com/Article_ ... ience.html


I think they've come to realize that what they call 'passing through the gate' isn't equivalent to liberation, a year ago however they might have, and many of those who went through their process did have that impression. They're very active on FB forums so I've interacted with them quite a bit in passing. To their defense, their founding members and 'key figures' are actually very passionate about the dharma. From what I've seen with their interactions online they're very open minded to receiving constructive criticism and seeking an evolution of their views, plus they're very friendly people... I know one of their founding members used to practice Buddhism and was part of a sangha which fell apart due to scandal. I think that caused him to lose confidence in organized systems somewhat, probably was part of what inspired the approach they attempt to implement. At any rate though, doesn't compare to dzogchen. If people have found benefit through their process that's great, but it's a distant and far cry from the Great Perfection teachings. Even Madhyamaka logic is more refined in my opinion, but to each their own!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:55 am 
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heart wrote:
gentle_monster wrote:

heart wrote:
it just a lot of bla bla bla


But that is not true. That some path is not leading to rig pa and is not dzogchen does not mean it is not leading to experiences and insights.


Ok, I rephrase, from a Dzogchen point it is all bla bla bla. From a worldly point of view it can be a treasure.

/magnus

I wonder how it is that, in the marketing of Dharma to the West, Dzogchen has totally eclipsed Mahamudra? Odd that.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:29 am 
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In fact, I'm going to start a campaign to start calling it by its tibetan name. From now on let's call it Chakchen instead of Mahamudra. That'll get back in the game!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:59 am 
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Chakya Chenpo!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:31 am 
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Madhyamaka is logical analysis... "direct pointing" method they use is for experential insight.

You can conclude using logic about twofold emptiness... But personally I don't see someone with better logic as more liberated than someone whose experience is without construing "observer observing observed".

Quote:
Ok, I rephrase, from a Dzogchen point it is all bla bla bla.


Do you consider discovering clarity and partially emptiness (firstfold emptiness; of self) as irrelevant in dzogchen practice?

Do you consider discovering that experience is spontaneous manifestation without additional experiencer and doer as irrelevant in dzogchen practice?

Do you perhaps consider these discoveries as "worldly"? I dunno what is behind your usage of "worldly".


Regards


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:32 pm 
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gentle_monster wrote:
Quote:
Ok, I rephrase, from a Dzogchen point it is all bla bla bla.


Do you consider discovering clarity and partially emptiness (firstfold emptiness; of self) as irrelevant in dzogchen practice?

Do you consider discovering that experience is spontaneous manifestation without additional experiencer and doer as irrelevant in dzogchen practice?

Do you perhaps consider these discoveries as "worldly"? I dunno what is behind your usage of "worldly".

Regards


Words such as emptiness and clarity and so on can be used from both a worldly and dharmic point of view, but what is indicated will differ a lot. You need the auspicious coincidence of a meeting between a qualified master and a qualified student to accurately introduce the natural state, and that is Dzogchen. Any attempt doing this without being a qualified master will not introduce the natural state or emptiness or clarity or spontaneous manifestation, so that is then something else. Sorry if I hurt your feelings with the "bla bla bla" but I don't believe these kind things will liberate anyone from samsara and hence they are worldly.

/magnus


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Actually, "bla bla bla" is pretty good, from a Tibetan pov:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/bla

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:49 pm 
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dzogchungpa wrote:
Actually, "bla bla bla" is pretty good, from a Tibetan pov:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/bla

So is "yaba daba do". (Well, without the 'daba' part.)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:58 pm 
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smcj wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Actually, "bla bla bla" is pretty good, from a Tibetan pov:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/bla

So is "yaba daba do". (Well, without the 'daba' part.)


That's funny.

:tongue:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:34 pm 
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dzogchungpa wrote:
Actually, "bla bla bla" is pretty good, from a Tibetan pov:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/bla


:smile:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:47 am 
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heart wrote:
I recommend finding a Dzogchen master.


I am a Dzogchen practitioner of ChNN. :smile:
Just want to surface this issue for public knowledge, because some of the person I know construes that UL is the same as Dzogchen, but I can't ensure him. :namaste:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:54 am 
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Tenpa wrote:
heart wrote:
I recommend finding a Dzogchen master.


I am a Dzogchen practitioner of ChNN. :smile:
Just want to surface this issue for public knowledge, because some of the person I know construes that UL is the same as Dzogchen, but I can't ensure him. :namaste:


If Malcolm, an old student of ChNNR, says no you should be able to trust that for now. Eventually, as you gain more confidence in your practice, you will be able to come to this conclusion be yourself.

/magnus

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