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What and how much? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

What and how much?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Lazy_eye
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Lazy_eye » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:46 am


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ground
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Re: What and how much?

Postby ground » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:03 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: What and how much?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:18 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: What and how much?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:35 am


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cooran
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Re: What and how much?

Postby cooran » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:50 am

Hello all,

We need the right mix of all three of these in order to advance in the Dhamma:
pariyatti: Theoretical understanding of Dhamma obtained through reading, study, and learning.
paṭipatti: The practice of Dhamma, as opposed to mere theoretical knowledge (pariyatti).
paṭivedha: Direct, first-hand realization of the Dhamma.


Dhamma: Good Dhamma is of three sorts —
1 Pariyatti:
This refers to studying and memorizing passages from the Canon, which qualifies on the physical level as a symbol of the Dhamma taught by the Buddha. But this, too, can either qualify or be disqualified as a symbol. Some people, for example, use passages from the Dhamma in committing robbery or casting spells. For instance, they repeat the chant of the virtues of the Dhamma or the phrase, 'Namo buddhaya,' three times or seven times, and then commit thievery or highway robbery, believing that they have made themselves invincible. Or when casting spells, they repeat the phrase, 'Na-metta, mo-karuna, da-love me, I won't go, you come, omasavaha' — they say that this makes a woman really fall for a man. This sort of thing disqualifies the phrase, even though its original meaning may have been something good.
But if we revere the Dhamma and make use of it through the power of our conviction, memorizing passages of Pali for the sake of what is good and pure, and then putting them into use, they will give rise to merit. For example, if we repeat the phrase, 'Dhammam saranam gacchami (I go to the Dhamma for refuge),' or 'Namo buddhaya (Homage to the Buddha),' with heartfelt conviction, giving rise to a sense of joy, this mental state can then serve to protect us from certain kinds of accidents and harm. We may reap real benefits from the phrase we repeat. This is something that people who have respect for the Dhamma should investigate carefully.
These passages, then, can qualify as symbols of the Dhamma — or be disqualified, if we don't know their true aims.

2 Patipatti:
This refers to behaving sincerely in line with the Buddha's teachings:
a Sila: putting our thoughts, words, and deeds in order.
b Samadhi: keeping the mind firmly intent in the four levels of jhana, free from the mental Hindrances.

3 Pativedha:
This refers to extinguishing defilement completely, releasing the mind from all suffering and stress. This qualifies as the essence of the Dhamma.
All three of the levels mentioned here form the inner qualifications of those who truly revere and follow the Dhamma.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... tml#sorts3

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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fig tree
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Re: What and how much?

Postby fig tree » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:21 am

It seems as though in the canon's description of how the early community developed, one sees it progressively needing more rules. Many rules were initially unnecessary. Then one runs into cases of monks who need them. I suspect there's an analogous progression in other aspects of the dhamma. If one is in a condition of not having a lot of these obstacles, it seems likely to me that many things can go without being said. But many of us are dealing with weaknesses in ourselves that we have trouble seeing clearly, and more technique, more reminders, more alternative ways of illustrating the point, seem sometimes to be needed.

Blind spots can be pretty extensive. Civil right and feminism have both taken on issues where in principle "don't be mean" should be sufficient advice, but in fact many people have grown accustomed to doing mean things and seeing them as normal, to the point where they need some kind of antidote, specific to the particular kind of blind spot they have.

The canon seems to keep implying that the number of things one actually needs to know is very small, with maybe the 37 enlightenment factors being an example of a (more than?) sufficient list. It seems however that one must actually have a clear understanding of them for it to be enough. I seem to have a kind of provisional understanding that keeps occasionally getting straightened out a bit. The back-and-forth people have had about right mindfulness, for example, may sometimes seem like a sterile exercise in debate, but I find it useful in casting light on some tacit expectations I've had about what it is. If one had an awakened person able to read your mind, the whole thing presumably could be done much more expeditiously, by the person identifying one's own specific weakness in understanding, but lacking that, it seems one can spend a long time studying and still keep arriving at occasional epiphanies about even very basic topics.

Fig Tree

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retrofuturist
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Re: What and how much?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:56 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

chownah
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Re: What and how much?

Postby chownah » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:24 am

Knowledge is what we know.....what we know are our views....when we say what we know we are really expressing our views....what views are going to get us into nibhanna?....why right view without effluents of course....therefore everything you need to know to get into nibhanna is contained in right view without effluents.....Is there a mistake here somewhere?....let me know as I could be wrong about this.

To me it seems that other types of knowledge might be seen as helping in developing right view without effluents but that there are many different approaches to right view without effluents and while the set of knowledge in and single approach might be sufficient to get the job done it is not necessary in that there are alternatives which when taken collectively can get the job done just as well.....I guess....

Another approach to this is: The Noble Eightfold Path is the only approach the Buddha taught to nibhanna.....which factor(s) of the path describe the knowledge required and which factor(s) describe techniques required?

chownah

Brizzy
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Brizzy » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:24 pm

Ignorance is an intentional act.

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Sam Vara
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Sam Vara » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:12 pm


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imagemarie
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Re: What and how much?

Postby imagemarie » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:34 pm

"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five."
Groucho Marx

:lol:

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Zom
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Zom » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:47 pm

My opinion on the subject (What do we need to know and how much do we need to know in order to practice the Dhamma?):

1. We need to know and we need to have a view that everything (in the widest and deepest sense) is impermanent.
2. We need to have a view that there is kamma and rebirth, that there are lower realms, and that samsara will be endless if not stopped.
3. We need to understand which things are good and which are bad (including subtle mental factors and states).
4. We need to know that deep samadhi is essential tool for destroying taints and so we should also know how to bring mind into deep samadhi states.
5. We need to know that we need a balanced approach (not push too much, not relax too much) and - that it takes time to cleanse the mind.

Knowing these five things and doing practice which is based on these five things is enough to bring full enlightenment.

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Viscid
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Viscid » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:32 pm

And to what degree could someone who is not exposed at all to The Dhamma (in the form of descriptive knowledge) be capable of practicing? Aren't people capable of intuiting the dhamma and having dhamma-themed insight without being formally educated about it?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Goofaholix
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:35 pm

We don't need to even have heard of Dhamma or the Buddha to be able to practise the principles that they teach.

Anybody with only a little dust in their eyes can notice the principles of anicca, dukkha, anatta in life for example without having even heard of Buddhism.

Anybody can notice that skillful mindful present moment attention yields dividends in life.

I don't think someone like this will reach full awakening without guidance, but I do think these principles are universal and people can discover them themselves without adherence to a brand name religion.

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Viscid
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Viscid » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:54 pm

"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Goofaholix
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:08 pm


chownah
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Re: What and how much?

Postby chownah » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:46 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: What and how much?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:09 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Viscid
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Viscid » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:20 am

"What holds attention determines action." - William James

Brizzy
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Re: What and how much?

Postby Brizzy » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:16 am

Ignorance is an intentional act.


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