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The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera - Page 10 - Dhamma Wheel

The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:59 am

Hi Retro,

Thanks. All we need now is agreement on what these "objects" are.

1. Actual real things.

2. Mind-fabricated objects.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Brivat » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:42 pm

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Last edited by Brivat on Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pulga
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby pulga » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:56 pm


vinasp
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:36 pm

Hi pulga,

"Some it seems are under the impression that the mind "fabricates" the things in the world in a sort of magic show ... "

Which "world" are you speaking of here?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Brivat » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:50 pm

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vinasp
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:36 pm

Hi Brivat,

You said: "I'm not sure what you mean by "real" and "mind-fabricated".

By "real" I mean, for example, the apple which is on the table in front of me.
For some, this is a direct experience, and to assume that the apple is real is
to be questioned.

By "mind-fabricated" I mean a misconception of something which results in
craving for, and clinging to that misconception of something.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby pulga » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:44 pm

Hello Brivat,

The mamsacakkhu is the positive of a visual experience when reflected upon , it is what appears in reflexion as a phenomenon amongst other phenomena. It is essentially a composite of multiple faculties (One can often "feel" the eyes in one's head, as well as imagine them, having seen them in a mirror; these experiences as well as one's point-of-view determine the eye as that in the world by which we are perceivers of the world. The eye as cakkhayatana is a negative within the immediacy of visual experience, i.e it is one’s point-of-view, and so is asmimana (i.e. the subject “I” prior to reflexion). Both are negative, and both are heavily prone to being conflated.

And so it goes with the mind as manayatana. If one pauses to give it some thought it's amazing how much imagination goes into just my being in this room in the here and now. But as I understand Ven. Ñanavira, my being in this room is a thing (an Erlebnis) as well, an object in relation to the mind, just as a form is related to the eye (cakkhayatana).

Best regards,
Pulga
Last edited by pulga on Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby Brivat » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:03 am

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pulga
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby pulga » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:04 am


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby pulga » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:19 am

Hello Brivat,

I should add that the other five faculties are in play here as well. There is no experience that escapes the concrete, the being here-and-now. Even if I imagine an experience I had yesterday, it always presents itself as a memory.

Take care,
Pulga
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vinasp
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:28 am

Hi pulga,

In the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka, "world" is the same as suffering
and is said to cease completely and permanently.

The same is said about "all".

At what point does your "intelligible world" cease?

Regards, Vincent.

pulga
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby pulga » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:07 am


vinasp
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:52 am

Hi Pulga,

You said: "The world in all its complexity if founded phassa."

If you meant to say that: the world in all its complexity is founded on
phassa, Then this is not in agreement with the teachings.

Phassa is itself dependent on six-spheres, nama-rupa, consciousness, volitional
formations and ignorance.

So, when ignorance ceases, then contact will cease, and "world" will end.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:26 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:03 am

Hi Retro,

Yes. An interesting point.

I was using "world" there in the sense of suffering. As in those passages
where "... and so arises this whole mass of suffering", is replaced by
" ... and so arises the world." ( and the same for cessation. )

But your remark reminded me that the "eye" and "form" are also said to be
suffering, and "world", for example in SN 35.67 and 68.

So it seems that the twelve spheres are already suffering and "world", even
before anything else arises from them. Strange.

Perhaps the misconception of the eye as "mine", and the misconception of
visible-forms as "mine", is already suffering and "my world".

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:11 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:21 am

Hi everyone,

Here are some additional references on the six-spheres and contact.

On the cessation of the six-spheres:

SN 35.65, SN 35.66, SN 35.67 and SN 35.68

These four explain that when there is no eye, no form and no eye-consciousness
then there is not "Mara" (death), "a being" (satta?), Suffering (dukkha) or
"a world" (loka).

SN 35.7 " ... the well-taught ariyan disciple cares not for an eye that is
past, is not in love with an eye to be, and for the present
eye, seeks to be repelled by it, seeks dispassion for it, seeks
the ceasing of it." [ PTS Kindred Sayings IV page 3 ]

SN 35.154 " If a brother preach a doctrine of repugnance for the eye, for
it's fading out, for it's cessation, he may well be called
a brother who is a norm-preacher." [ PTS K.S. IV page 89 ]

On Contact:

SN 35.130 "Herein, housefather, seeing a pleasant object with the eye,
a brother, at the thought "this is such and such" comes to
know of eye-consciousness that is pleasant to experience.
Owing to contact that is pleasant to experience arises
pleasant feeling." [ PTS KS IV page 72 ]

SN 35.96 "Herein, brethren, at sight of an object, evil unprofitable
states arise in a brother, memories and plans, akin to the
fetters that bind. If a brother welcomes that object, rejects
it not, puts it not away, wipes it not out, does not make it
go to utter destruction, thus should a brother understand
of it: "In profitable states I fall back. This was called by
the Exalted One "falling back." [ PTS KS IV page 45 ]

SN 35.95 " ... in what is seen you will have only the seen."

SN 35.90 " He should not imagine: 'I have an eye'."

SN 35.30 " He imagines not: I have an eye."

SN 35.31 Shows that "aggregates", "elements", and "spheres" are the same
thing, classifications of things which are clung to.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:29 am

Greetings,

Awesome selection, Vincent.

:twothumbsup:

Clearly worthy of contemplation in line with Nanavira Thera's exposition on paticcasamuppada, and his phenomenological understanding of the key terms used in the suttas.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

pulga
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby pulga » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:28 pm



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