Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby mohitsharma » Fri May 31, 2013 6:43 am

It is really very unfortunate that such countries are not able to protect the religious institutions of a certain community.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Dawlish » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:11 pm

The major surveys of Muslims in the UK found the following:

20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers.
1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".
18% of British Muslims would be proud or indifferent if a family member joined al-Qaeda.
One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed.
78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Mohammed cartoons.
40% of British Muslim students want Sharia.
68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam.
1 in 10 British Muslims support killing a family member over "dishonour".
61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished.

The polls were by ICM, NOP, The Centre for Social Cohesion - so they are reputable sources. These are, however, old figures - from 2007 mostly. There aren't any more recent wide scale surveys. The younger generation (16 - 24) were far more radical ( 34% believed suicide bombings were justified compared to 24% overall) than those over 60.

Judging by these figures and the trend towards more radicalisation in the younger generation in the UK, there will almost certainly be significant problems in the years ahead for the UK, especially considering the disparity of the birth rate between the rest of the UK population and the muslim minority. Projections by the Pew Research Centre said the 40 years between 1990 and 2030 will see a fivefold rise in Britain. In 1990 there were 1.1million Muslims in Britain, representing two per cent of the population. In 2010 that figure had risen to 2.8million, or four per cent. By 2030 the number will hit 5.5million - eight per cent of an estimated 68million population.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby phaseolus » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:58 pm

By asking this I don't mean to excuse a viewpoint that I find troubling, but ... do any of those polls mention the unemployment rate for young Muslim males in Great Britain? It might be a nice thing to know, just to add a little relevant context.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Dan74 » Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:44 pm

The figures above are quite misleading. Some of them I could not verify at all. Here's a more recent article that gives the other side of the story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/jul/03/muslims-integrated-britain

• 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public.

• 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do.

• 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians.

• 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoods compared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons.

• 90% of Pakistanis feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain compared to 84% of white people.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Dawlish » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:00 pm

Look I posted that by mistake before I had finished editing it.

There are many positive statistics that can be mentioned. 62% of 16 to 24-year-olds feel they have as much in common with non-Muslims as Muslims, for example. So it did come across without the positive side, for which I apologise.

What I was going to say, but was unable to finish, was that I am sure Islam does not permit such acts. The overwhelming majority of Muslims live productive lives in the UK, despite the fact that there are still reasons to be a little concerned due to problems with radicalisation, which is what I meant when I said that unless this issue is addressed then there could be problems ahead. We need to understand root causes.

However, I am also sure that the overwhelming majority of Muslims would say violence is not justified in their religion, and I would believe them 100%.

I think it is a little unfair that people look at "Muslims" as a homogenous group, rather than individuals or citizens. I think the Muslim label is a massive red herring in many ways.

I wholeheartedly condemn the violence against the Muslims in Burma, it is outrageous and must be stopped!

I respect the religion of Islam, and hope we can all leave side by side in peace.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:50 pm

Dawlish wrote:The major surveys of Muslims in the UK found the following:

20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers.
1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".
18% of British Muslims would be proud or indifferent if a family member joined al-Qaeda.
One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed.
78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Mohammed cartoons.
40% of British Muslim students want Sharia.
68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam.
1 in 10 British Muslims support killing a family member over "dishonour".
61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished.
Let's turn the statistics back onto their feet now shall we, just to give a clearer view of what they are actually saying:
80% of British Muslims disagree (do not sympathise) with the 7/7 bombers.
75% (3in 4) are opposed to suicide attacks against British troops.
63% believe that Jews in Britain are not legitimate targets.
72% of British Muslims would feel disgraced if a family member joined al-Qaeda.
66% (two thirds) of British Muslims believe that Muslims should be allowed to leave their faith without capital punishment.
78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Mohammed cartoons.
60% of British Muslim students are opposed to Sharia.
68% of British Muslims support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who insults Islam.
90% (9 in 10) British Muslims are opposed to "dishonour" killings.
49% of British Muslims believe homosexuality is not punishable behaviour (compare this to 41.89% of British Christians, ie the difference is minimal, http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitudes ... ay-rights/ ).

Same statistics, but expressed in a manner which emphasises "positive" qualities rather "negative".

Actually, one can now see quite clearly that there is very little incongruence with the statistics published by The Guardian.

Given that the statistics do not show comparisons from prevalent attitudes from, let us say, 15-20 years ago I fail to see how you can draw this conclusion:
Judging by these figures and the trend towards more radicalisation in the younger generation in the UK, there will almost certainly be significant problems in the years ahead for the UK
and then make the hysterical leap of (il)logic contained in this statement:
...especially considering the disparity of the birth rate between the rest of the UK population and the muslim minority. Projections by the Pew Research Centre said the 40 years between 1990 and 2030 will see a fivefold rise in Britain. In 1990 there were 1.1million Muslims in Britain, representing two per cent of the population. In 2010 that figure had risen to 2.8million, or four per cent. By 2030 the number will hit 5.5million - eight per cent of an estimated 68million population.
I imagine that the children of Muslim migrants to the UK will adopt the reproductive patterns and birth rates of the Christian majority. This is the pattern that I have observed for other ethnic groups in Australia and New Zealand.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Dawlish » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:21 pm

I agree. It is much clearer expressed this way! I'm afraid my original post was influenced by the 'negative' statistics, but I can see what you mean about my first post being hysterical once the polls are spun around. Thanks. :namaste:

I don't believe that Islam is causing people to do bad things in Bangladesh, or elsewhere. Anyone who wants to do harm can find something to support their actions in their religion if they look hard enough.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:30 pm

Dawlish wrote:Anyone who wants to do harm can find something to support their actions in their religion if they look hard enough.
:thumbsup:

Religious minorities, of any type, in any country, normally get a rough deal from the majority!
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Wu-Ji » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:27 am

I think one can come to clear conclusions by looking at how Buddhism are "tolerated" in Muslim countries. Tolerance, compassion and understanding might not receive the same in return when certain religious doctrines teaches their disciples to ultimately resort to violence.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:47 am

Really? And what about the tolerance shown by Buddhist Burmese towards Muslims?

1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,4they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.5“Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.7But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.9When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?”11She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”


Like "dawlish" said:
Anyone who wants to do harm can find something to support their actions in their religion if they look hard enough.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Wu-Ji » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:50 am

Feel free to move to the Middle East and practice the Dharma.
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:09 am

Feel free to move to Burma and practice Islam.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Buddhist temples destroyed in Bangladesh.

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:54 pm

Surveys like those that ask whether a certain group sympathizes with a bombing, etc. are odd for a couple reasons.

Firstly, it is not illegal (or arguably should not be in our society) to "sympathize" with anyone, even those who have done horrible things.

Secondly, you could do a similar survey of for instance, whether or not Americans sympathized with the white supremacist who murdered six at the Sikh Temple..or Anders Breivik, who racked himself up quite a body count (ironically he believed his fight was against Islam, among other things), and you would probably get a similarly disturbing group of answers.

In America there are all kinds of non-Muslim people who sympathize with all kinds of deplorable things, and you regular hear about how we should literally genocide the entire Middle East, kill gays, etc. So, you really can't go by that sort of thing to draw any conclusions on an entire people, it's not illegal (and certainly not unusual) for anyone to say idiotic things like that they sympathize with bombers, or that we should round up all Muslims or whatever...people talk as they do.

I freely admit that it's clear to me elements of Islamic Culture have some issues with modernity, and with living in liberal democracies, and with tolerance of other beliefs - especially salafist-derived versions. Also governments connected to militant Islam are pretty unpalatable, no disagreement there, but governments are not their people - surely people in The West like to make that clear about themselves. Whatever the case, talking about all Muslims as if they are an organized global conspiracy, of one mind, with a nefarious plan for the rest of the world, really smacks, ironically..of the historical anti-semitism that was used against Jews in the past. Whatever the case, and whatever legitimate criticism of the current state of Islam (for sure there is some to be made), IMO Buddhists ought to check their minds closely when they start thinking this way.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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