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The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera - Page 8 - Dhamma Wheel

The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Exploring modern Theravāda interpretations of the Buddha's teaching.
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:33 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:49 am

Hi Retro,

Thanks. What I am trying to understand is whether in your understanding
of the Ven. Nanavira's work, some of the links of DO only cease when the
body of an arahant dies.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:55 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:02 am

Hi Retro,

OK, I have re-read section 22, in it Ven. Nanavira says:

"It is right to say that with a living arahat there is
still consciousness, name-and-matter, six-bases, contact,
and feeling, but only in a certain sense."

Elsewhere I think he says that in a certain sense they can be said to
have ceased.

This is what I do not understand: Why not just say that these links have
ceased?

Or, to take just one link, the six bases, why not just say - "it has ceased"?

I am sure that he thinks that craving and clinging have ceased, what is so
different about the six-bases?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:20 am

If you just say that the six sense media have in every respect ceased for living arahants then to me that means that all living arahants are blind and deaf (among other things).
chownah

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:30 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:31 am

Hi chownah,

But Retro has already said that the "all" is conditioned experience, and
that it can cease.

The "all" is the six internal spheres, and the six external spheres.

No one says that the six-spheres have to be understood as being the
actual sense organs.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:33 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:44 am


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:46 am

Greetings Tilt,

Do you wish to demonstrate your point by way of example, with respect to salayatana?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:47 am


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:51 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:59 am

Hi Retro,

Thanks, that does help to make things clear.

So Ven. Nanavira was afraid to be too explicit, because what he was
saying was so different to the traditional understanding?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:02 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:12 am


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:16 am


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:26 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:31 am


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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:37 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: The Work of Venerable Ñānavīra Thera

Postby vinasp » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:35 am

Hi everyone,

I think that I should explain my position.

The whole system of "double meanings" hinges on what is meant by an "object".

If one thinks that what one is clinging to is the actual external thing,
then one will never understand the teachings.

Only when one understands that the thing which one is clinging to is a
mind-fabricated object, can one begin to understand the teachings.

It is when this object ceases that clinging ceases.

These objects are classified in various ways.

There is a fivefold version called the five clinging aggregates.

There is a sixfold version called the six-elements.

And there is another sixfold version called the six-spheres.

When they say that the six-spheres cease, they mean that all these
mind-fabricated objects cease.

All the things that one is clinging to have ceased.

So there are two ways to understand the six-spheres, the aggregates and
the (six) elements.

Of course, there are passages which use "eye", "form" and "seeing", in the
ordinary everyday sense.

Regards, Vincent.


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