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 Post subject: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:39 pm 
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You can't understand the 10 bhumis merely by reading their names. Perhaps even reading their descriptions doesn't help either. Nor can you understand them out of order, because each one supports the next. They may seem like stupid poetry.

A stupid person might ask:

-Is the first bhumi the only one which is joyous?
-Is the second bhumi the only one which is free from defilement?
-Is the third bhumi the only one which is luminous?
-Is the fourth bhumi the only one which is radiant?

etc..

But you have to understand the jhanas first in order to understand the bhumis. And the bhumis can't be understood out of order, so you have to understand the first bhumi, the joyous, for any of them to make sense.

Perhaps confusion arises from thinking of the ten bhumis as ten different people, and from an ordinary perception, they might all appear to be simply holy people. The confusion arises from thinking of the bhumis as applied to things outside of your mind. Instead, see the bhumis -- the transition from bodhisattva to Buddhahood -- in your own mind, as your own practice of meditation, and it's beautifully simple.

Does what I said above make sense?


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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:28 pm 
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Individual wrote:
Does what I said above make sense?


No.

The ten bhumis are the graduated steps a Bodhisattva takes in their career towards Buddhahood.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Posts: 407
Huseng wrote:
Individual wrote:
Does what I said above make sense?


No.

I thought that might be the case. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:52 am
Posts: 300
Individual wrote:
You can't understand the 10 bhumis merely by reading their names. Perhaps even reading their descriptions doesn't help either. Nor can you understand them out of order, because each one supports the next. They may seem like stupid poetry.

A stupid person might ask:

-Is the first bhumi the only one which is joyous?
-Is the second bhumi the only one which is free from defilement?
-Is the third bhumi the only one which is luminous?
-Is the fourth bhumi the only one which is radiant?

etc..

But you have to understand the jhanas first in order to understand the bhumis. And the bhumis can't be understood out of order, so you have to understand the first bhumi, the joyous, for any of them to make sense.

Perhaps confusion arises from thinking of the ten bhumis as ten different people, and from an ordinary perception, they might all appear to be simply holy people. The confusion arises from thinking of the bhumis as applied to things outside of your mind. Instead, see the bhumis -- the transition from bodhisattva to Buddhahood -- in your own mind, as your own practice of meditation, and it's beautifully simple.

Does what I said above make sense?


I would be interested in reading a bit about the relationship between the jhanas and the ten bhumis. Do the 10 jhanas correspond to the 10 bhumis?


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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Location: Taiwan
Inge wrote:
Individual wrote:
You can't understand the 10 bhumis merely by reading their names. Perhaps even reading their descriptions doesn't help either. Nor can you understand them out of order, because each one supports the next. They may seem like stupid poetry.

A stupid person might ask:

-Is the first bhumi the only one which is joyous?
-Is the second bhumi the only one which is free from defilement?
-Is the third bhumi the only one which is luminous?
-Is the fourth bhumi the only one which is radiant?

etc..

But you have to understand the jhanas first in order to understand the bhumis. And the bhumis can't be understood out of order, so you have to understand the first bhumi, the joyous, for any of them to make sense.

Perhaps confusion arises from thinking of the ten bhumis as ten different people, and from an ordinary perception, they might all appear to be simply holy people. The confusion arises from thinking of the bhumis as applied to things outside of your mind. Instead, see the bhumis -- the transition from bodhisattva to Buddhahood -- in your own mind, as your own practice of meditation, and it's beautifully simple.

Does what I said above make sense?


I would be interested in reading a bit about the relationship between the jhanas and the ten bhumis. Do the 10 jhanas correspond to the 10 bhumis?


The word "jhana" is Pali which corresponds to "dhyana" in Sanskrit.

There are four jhana according to the Sravakayana model of meditation. Such a model has no use at all for Bodhisattva bhumis.

The jhanas are a graduated mundane meditation model which is only the mental stamina that provides the basis for penetrating wisdom. It is a prerequisite for liberation (and in particular becoming an Arhat).

A Bodhisattva would presumably still master the dhyanas as part of samadhi training, but considering what high stage Bodhisattvas are described as they're probably well beyond it already.

Keep in mind that the bhumis are not described as something you achieve in a week long retreat. It takes innumerable lifetimes to go through all ten and reach ultimate Buddhahood.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:20 am
Posts: 407
Huseng wrote:
Inge wrote:
Individual wrote:
You can't understand the 10 bhumis merely by reading their names. Perhaps even reading their descriptions doesn't help either. Nor can you understand them out of order, because each one supports the next. They may seem like stupid poetry.

A stupid person might ask:

-Is the first bhumi the only one which is joyous?
-Is the second bhumi the only one which is free from defilement?
-Is the third bhumi the only one which is luminous?
-Is the fourth bhumi the only one which is radiant?

etc..

But you have to understand the jhanas first in order to understand the bhumis. And the bhumis can't be understood out of order, so you have to understand the first bhumi, the joyous, for any of them to make sense.

Perhaps confusion arises from thinking of the ten bhumis as ten different people, and from an ordinary perception, they might all appear to be simply holy people. The confusion arises from thinking of the bhumis as applied to things outside of your mind. Instead, see the bhumis -- the transition from bodhisattva to Buddhahood -- in your own mind, as your own practice of meditation, and it's beautifully simple.

Does what I said above make sense?


I would be interested in reading a bit about the relationship between the jhanas and the ten bhumis. Do the 10 jhanas correspond to the 10 bhumis?


The word "jhana" is Pali which corresponds to "dhyana" in Sanskrit.

There are four jhana according to the Sravakayana model of meditation. Such a model has no use at all for Bodhisattva bhumis.

The jhanas are a graduated mundane meditation model which is only the mental stamina that provides the basis for penetrating wisdom. It is a prerequisite for liberation (and in particular becoming an Arhat).

A Bodhisattva would presumably still master the dhyanas as part of samadhi training, but considering what high stage Bodhisattvas are described as they're probably well beyond it already.

Keep in mind that the bhumis are not described as something you achieve in a week long retreat. It takes innumerable lifetimes to go through all ten and reach ultimate Buddhahood.

I really regret posting this and don't see the purpose in further discussion, sorry. I sent a PM to Astus, asking him to delete or lock this thread.

None of us know what we are talking about. We have no foundation upon which to even begin a constructive discussion.

Inge wrote:
Individual wrote:
You can't understand the 10 bhumis merely by reading their names. Perhaps even reading their descriptions doesn't help either. Nor can you understand them out of order, because each one supports the next. They may seem like stupid poetry.

A stupid person might ask:

-Is the first bhumi the only one which is joyous?
-Is the second bhumi the only one which is free from defilement?
-Is the third bhumi the only one which is luminous?
-Is the fourth bhumi the only one which is radiant?

etc..

But you have to understand the jhanas first in order to understand the bhumis. And the bhumis can't be understood out of order, so you have to understand the first bhumi, the joyous, for any of them to make sense.

Perhaps confusion arises from thinking of the ten bhumis as ten different people, and from an ordinary perception, they might all appear to be simply holy people. The confusion arises from thinking of the bhumis as applied to things outside of your mind. Instead, see the bhumis -- the transition from bodhisattva to Buddhahood -- in your own mind, as your own practice of meditation, and it's beautifully simple.

Does what I said above make sense?


I would be interested in reading a bit about the relationship between the jhanas and the ten bhumis. Do the 10 jhanas correspond to the 10 bhumis?

No. At least, I don't think so. The 10 jhanas you mention are beneath the first bhumi.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:09 pm
Posts: 123
Quote:
I would be interested in reading a bit about the relationship between the jhanas and the ten bhumis. Do the 10 jhanas correspond to the 10 bhumis?


No they do not. The Dhyanas are levels of meditative absorbtions one can enter through meditation. As an individual begins to clear up view and thought delusions in the dhyanas they begin to attain a lot of insight and wisdom.

The ten stages of the Bodhisattva aren't something one can just attain in one life, they take many lifetimes to fully accomplish. However, Bodhisattvas also practice this meditative insight as well because it's conducive to awakening.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:14 pm 
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Location: Taiwan
If you want to know about the Ten Bhumis read the Avatamsaka-sutra (Flower Ornament Sutra).

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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:04 am 
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Individual wrote:
None of us know what we are talking about. We have no foundation upon which to even begin a constructive discussion.


Individual -

you posted a very good question and I'm sure that you are very sincere in your desire to understand the Buddhadharma. Sincere questions are very pleasing to Shakyamuni Buddha and this can be seen in numerous sutras.

We are all engaged in the study and practice of the Buddhadharma and this also is pleasing to the Buddhas'. As we progress, things become clearer and we do in fact begin to know what we are talking about and to build a solid foundation of faith and understanding.

Kirt

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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:33 am 
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Posts: 407
kirtu wrote:
Individual wrote:
None of us know what we are talking about. We have no foundation upon which to even begin a constructive discussion.


Individual -

you posted a very good question and I'm sure that you are very sincere in your desire to understand the Buddhadharma. Sincere questions are very pleasing to Shakyamuni Buddha and this can be seen in numerous sutras.

We are all engaged in the study and practice of the Buddhadharma and this also is pleasing to the Buddhas'. As we progress, things become clearer and we do in fact begin to know what we are talking about and to build a solid foundation of faith and understanding.

Kirt

This is true.

However, if I had rambled instead of withdrawing my rambling, you wouldn't have said what you just said.

I will ramble again to show you. Somebody asked about the relationship between jhana and bhumi.

Here you go:

1: I sit down to meditate and reach the lower jhanas, feeling happy.
2: In the act of concentration, all mental defilements are erased together all at once.
3: Through mental defilements being erased, there is the spark of wisdom.
4: The light of wisdom grows brighter.
5: It is difficult to keep the light going.
6: But there is the inner strength to overcome that ignorance.
7: Ignorance is transcended.
8: Therefore, nothing can disturb the mind.
9: The truth is clear.
10: I stand up and go tell others what I have discovered.

And this meditation takes many lifetimes to do.


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 Post subject: Re: The Ten Bhumis
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:37 am 
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Location: Budapest
Locked as Requested by OP.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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