What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby MalaBeads » Sat May 25, 2013 7:45 pm

oldbob wrote:I'll drink to that!

:cheers:


Yes, he probably would say that, ob, in his dry, sardonic, endlessly amused way.

Very quickly this thread has veered waaaay off the OP's initial question and I don't want people reading this thread to think that the practice after realization is drinking and carousing, etc. I have no idea what the practice is after realization cause I haven't done it yet.

For me, I'm just working at not suffering as a result of my emotional attachments.

But I do like a cold beer on a hot day.

:tongue:
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby Dronma » Sat May 25, 2013 8:43 pm

lobster wrote:I made it through the wilderness
Somehow I made it through
Didn't know how lost I was
Until I found you

I was beat incomplete
I'd been had, I was sad and blue
But you made me feel
Yeah, you made me feel
Shiny and new

[Chorus:]

Like a Buddha
Touched for the very first time
Like a Buddha
When your heart beats [after first time, "With your heartbeat"]
Next to mine

:woohoo:



Let's dance... put on your red shoes and dance the blues....
Like a Buddha, touched for the very first time.....
:applause:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby Dronma » Sat May 25, 2013 8:59 pm

MalaBeads wrote:Very quickly this thread has veered waaaay off the OP's initial question and I don't want people reading this thread to think that the practice after realization is drinking and carousing, etc. I have no idea what the practice is after realization cause I haven't done it yet.


There is NO practice after 100% perfect realization (total liberation).
Because the aim of practice is achieving realization/liberation.
Since the aim has been completed, the path miraculously disappears, exactly as it appears in our illusory mind.
The whole question is a total paradox! :cheers:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby oldbob » Mon May 27, 2013 5:40 am

I dunno.

Yes, language is self limiting, sometimes in seeming paradoxical ways, but if you rephrase the question as, "What is the activity, or behavior, after Dzogchen realization," then you can look at the lives of those whom you feel have accomplished Dzogchen and see what they do. I think the range of possibility is very wide, from traveling around, constantly giving teachings in many places, to staying permanently in dark retreat, like Ayu Khandro, to appearing no different in any way from an ordinary person, save when you die you make the rainbow body or great transference.

Reading the biographies of the Masters is always useful and heartening.

http://www.amazon.com/Brilliant-Moon-Au ... pd_sim_b_4

http://www.amazon.com/Apparitions-Self- ... net+gyatso

http://www.amazon.com/The-Lotus-Born-Li ... pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Liberation- ... net+gyatso

http://www.amazon.com/Lady-Lotus-Born-E ... he+Tsogyal

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Revelations- ... pemalingpa

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Shabkar-Auto ... of+Shabkar

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... +Wangchug+

and many others.
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby muni » Mon May 27, 2013 7:58 am

oldbob wrote:
& if it is full, empty it, & if it is empty, fill it: but with Awareness! :smile:

So ANYTHING you do with Awareness becomes a brightful and joyful practice: even narcissistic Yantra Yoga and nit picking Vajra Dance! :smile:

AND then there are the most secret, 7th lamp, practices of singing off key Tibetan folk songs, and jumping around, like you've got a mouse in your undies, Tibetan folk dance. :smile:

Amazing! :rolling:



Jumping. :smile:
Pema Chodron: ((( * Embrace the whole world * ))) :smile:

Master-Student. A bit off topic, union mother-child-metaphor maybe this song, I like to share with all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pddcau2O3Ro

:smile: :buddha1:
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby MalaBeads » Mon May 27, 2013 10:31 am

oldbob wrote:I dunno.

Yes, language is self limiting, sometimes in seeming paradoxical ways, but if you rephrase the question as, "What is the activity, or behavior, after Dzogchen realization," then you can look at the lives of those whom you feel have accomplished Dzogchen and see what they do. I think the range of possibility is very wide, from traveling around, constantly giving teachings in many places, to staying permanently in dark retreat, like Ayu Khandro, to appearing no different in any way from an ordinary person, save when you die you make the rainbow body or great transference.

Reading the biographies of the Masters is always useful and heartening.

http://www.amazon.com/Brilliant-Moon-Au ... pd_sim_b_4

http://www.amazon.com/Apparitions-Self- ... net+gyatso

http://www.amazon.com/The-Lotus-Born-Li ... pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Lives-Liberation- ... net+gyatso

http://www.amazon.com/Lady-Lotus-Born-E ... he+Tsogyal

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Revelations- ... pemalingpa

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Shabkar-Auto ... of+Shabkar

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... +Wangchug+

and many others.


I have always enjoyed reading about the lives of others, especially those who are spiritually accomplished. They inspire me, show me what is possible.

However

I am not them. They are not me. Lamentable as it is, this is also how it is.

And if I let it be, there is a lot of suffering in those gaps.

My effort (these days anyway) is simply to integrate the body, speech and mind I actually have in this life. And to do that, I have to actually know this body, know this speech, know this mind. I have to look deeply enough to see where these three aspects are functioning separately and I have to do whatever is necessary to unify my life as it is.

Very often I don't like my life. I want it to be something else. Maybe more like those "saints" of the past. Maybe like a life i see on TV or in a magazine. Something I see "out there". Something "else". But it isn't like that.

This body, this speech, this mind. That's what I have.

And I'm doing my best to integrate that.

In a way, you could say that complete integration is the experience of no gaps. Anywhere. No gaps = non-duality. Unified field of reality as it appears in this body, speech and mind. This/that, day/night, male/female, self/other all functioning in a non-dual way.

But this is just thinking and I will stop here.

:smile:
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby Dronma » Mon May 27, 2013 6:38 pm

oldbob wrote:Yes, language is self limiting, sometimes in seeming paradoxical ways, but if you rephrase the question as, "What is the activity, or behavior, after Dzogchen realization," then you can look at the lives of those whom you feel have accomplished Dzogchen and see what they do.


This is a totally different question. And if the OP or somebody else likes to discuss it, then a new thread must be created.
I agree that language is self-limiting, that's why we have to be aware every time we use it. It can easily be transformed to flowers or weapons... :juggling:


MalaBeads wrote:In a way, you could say that complete integration is the experience of no gaps. Anywhere. No gaps = non-duality. Unified field of reality as it appears in this body, speech and mind. This/that, day/night, male/female, self/other all functioning in a non-dual way.


I like this thinking a lot! :twothumbsup:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby MalaBeads » Mon May 27, 2013 6:56 pm

Dronma,

I rarely respond to your posts because I never know what to say.

You're pretty perceptive, girl.

MB
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby oldbob » Tue May 28, 2013 9:47 am

Dronma wrote:
oldbob wrote:Yes, language is self limiting, sometimes in seeming paradoxical ways, but if you rephrase the question as, "What is the activity, or behavior, after Dzogchen realization," then you can look at the lives of those whom you feel have accomplished Dzogchen and see what they do.


This is a totally different question. And if the OP or somebody else likes to discuss it, then a new thread must be created.
I agree that language is self-limiting, that's why we have to be aware every time we use it. It can easily be transformed to flowers or weapons... :juggling:


MalaBeads wrote:In a way, you could say that complete integration is the experience of no gaps. Anywhere. No gaps = non-duality. Unified field of reality as it appears in this body, speech and mind. This/that, day/night, male/female, self/other all functioning in a non-dual way.


I like this thinking a lot! :twothumbsup:



Hi Dronma,

:good:

I stand corrected.

:bow: :bow: :bow:

Would it be permissible with you, to rephrase my thought to:

"Yes, language is self limiting, sometimes in seeming paradoxical ways, but if you rephrase the question as, "Perhaps PRACTICE can be shown through the activity, or behavior, after Dzogchen realization," then you can look at the lives of those whom you feel have accomplished Dzogchen and see what they do. I think the range of possibility is very wide, from traveling around, constantly giving teachings in many places, to staying permanently in dark retreat, like Ayu Khandro, to appearing no different in any way from an ordinary person, save when you die you make the rainbow body or great transference. The histories and biographies of the accomplished Masters of Dzogchen, many times, also make reference to the PRACTICES that they are doing in the different places they visit and at different times in their lives, hence before and after realization."

:group:
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What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby Dronma » Tue May 28, 2013 3:00 pm

oldbob wrote:Hi Dronma,

:good:

I stand corrected.

:bow: :bow: :bow:

Would it be permissible with you, to rephrase my thought to:

"Yes, language is self limiting, sometimes in seeming paradoxical ways, but if you rephrase the question as, "Perhaps PRACTICE can be shown through the activity, or behavior, after Dzogchen realization," then you can look at the lives of those whom you feel have accomplished Dzogchen and see what they do. I think the range of possibility is very wide, from traveling around, constantly giving teachings in many places, to staying permanently in dark retreat, like Ayu Khandro, to appearing no different in any way from an ordinary person, save when you die you make the rainbow body or great transference. The histories and biographies of the accomplished Masters of Dzogchen, many times, also make reference to the PRACTICES that they are doing in the different places they visit and at different times in their lives, hence before and after realization."

:group:



Hi oldbob!!! :hug:

First of all, you don't need my permission to say anything. :tongue:
You are one of the people who can use the language very precisely!

Then about the realized masters, I don't know...
I only imagine that they do not really need any practice (with the literal meaning of the word "practice"), since they do not dwell anymore in duality. I imagine that they manifest various actions, which sometimes include manifestations of practising for the benefit of the deluded beings by teaching them the path towards total liberation.
But again, I do not pretend omniscience about the way perfectly realized beings are acting, I only imagine... :smile:
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby MalaBeads » Thu May 30, 2013 1:12 am

Most of you have probably already seen this. It is readily available on the Internet and it pertains directly I think to the OP question. I am pretty far from being able to follow this advice in all moments but I use it as an inspiration and it is very effective as such.

It has been attributed to HH Dilgo Khyentse but I have also seen suggestion that it was actually written by Chogyam Trungpa Rinoche. I really don't know and don't care who wrote it. That is not at all the point of posting it and please do not turn this post into that discussion.

Read it and be inspired.


Dzogchen Practice in Everyday Life

"The everyday practice of dzogchen is simply to develop a complete carefree acceptance, an openness to all situations without limit. We should realize openness as the playground of our emotions and relate to people without artificiality, manipulation or strategy. We should experience everything totally, never withdrawing into ourselves as a marmot hides in its hole. This practice releases tremendous energy which is usually constricted by the process of maintaining fixed reference points. Referentiality is the process by which we retreat from the direct experience of everyday life.


Being present in the moment may initially trigger fear. But by welcoming the sensation of fear with complete openness, we cut through the barriers created by habitual emotional patterns.


When we engage in the practice of discovering space, we should develop the feeling of opening ourselves out completely to the entire universe. We should open ourselves with absolute simplicity and nakedness of mind. This is the powerful and ordinary practice of dropping the mask of self-protection.


We shouldn’t make a division in our meditation between perception and field of perception. We shouldn’t become like a cat watching a mouse. We should realize that the purpose of meditation is not to go “deeply into ourselves” or withdraw from the world. Practice should be free and non-conceptual, unconstrained by introspection and concentration.


Vast un-originated self-luminous wisdom space is the ground of being - the beginning and the end of confusion. The presence of awareness in the primordial state has no bias toward enlightenment or non-enlightenment. This ground of being which is known as pure original mind is the source from which all phenomena arise. It is known as the great mother, as the womb of potentiality in which all things arise and dissolve in natural self-perfectedness and absolute spontaneity.


All aspects of phenomena are completely clear and lucid. The whole universe is open and unobstructed - everything is mutually interpenetrating.


Seeing all things as naked, clear and free from obscurations, there is nothing to attain or realize. The nature of phenomena appears naturally and is naturally present in time-transcending awareness. Everything is naturally perfect just as it is. All phenomena appear in their uniqueness as part of the continually changing pattern. These patterns are vibrant with meaning and significance at every moment; yet there is not significance to attach to such meanings beyond the moment in which they present themselves.


This is the dance of the five elements in which matter is a symbol of energy and energy a symbol of emptiness. We are a symbol of our own enlightenment. With no effort or practice whatsoever, liberation or enlightenment is already here.


The everyday practice of dzogchen is just everyday life itself. Since the undeveloped state does not exist, there is no need to behave in any special way or attempt to attain anything above and beyond what you actually are. There should be no feeling of striving to reach some “amazing goal” or “advanced state”. To strive for such a state is a neurosis which only conditions us and serves to obstruct the free flow of Mind. We should also avoid thinking of ourselves as worthless persons – we are naturally free and unconditioned. We are intrinsically enlightened and lack nothing.


When engaging in meditation practice, we should feel it to be as natural as eating, breathing and defecating. It should not become a specialized or formal event, bloated with seriousness and solemnity. We should realize that meditation transcends effort, practice, aims, goals and the duality of liberation and non-liberation. Meditation is always ideal; there is no need to correct anything. Since everything that arises is simply the play of mind as such, there is no unsatisfactory meditation and no need to judge thoughts as good or bad.


Therefore we should simply sit. Simply stay in your own place, in your own condition just as it is. Forgetting self conscious feelings, we do not have to think “I am meditating”. Our practice should be without effort, without strain, without attempts to control or force and without trying to become “peaceful”. If we find that we are disturbing ourselves in any of these ways, we stop meditating and simply rest or relax for a while. Then we resume our meditation. If we have “interesting experiences” either during or after meditation, we should avoid making anything special of them. To spend time thinking about experiences is simply a distraction and an attempt to become unnatural. These experiences are simply signs of practice and should be regarded as transient events. We should not attempt to re-experience them because to do so only serves to distort the natural spontaneity of mind.


All phenomena are completely new and fresh, absolutely unique and entirely free from all concepts of past, present future. They are experienced in timelessness. The continual stream of new discovery, revelation and inspiration which arises at every moment is the manifestation of our clarity. We should learn to see everyday as mandala – the luminous fringes of experience which radiate spontaneously from the empty nature of our being. The aspects of our mandala are the day-to-day objects of our life experience moving in the dance or play of the universe. By this symbolism the inner teacher reveals the profound and ultimate significance of being. Therefore we should be natural and spontaneous, accepting and learning from everything. This enables us to see the ironic and amusing side of events that usually irritate us.


In meditation we can see through the illusion of past, present and future – our experience becomes the continuity of now-ness. The past is only an unreliable memory held in the present. The future is only a projection of our present conceptions. The present itself vanishes as we try to grasp it. So why bother with attempting to establish an illusion of solid ground?


We should free ourselves from our past memories and preconceptions of meditation. Each moment of meditation is completely unique and full of potentiality. In such moments, we will be incapable of judging our meditation in terms of past experience, dry theory or hollow rhetoric.


Simply plunging directly into meditation in the moment now, with our whole being, free from hesitation, boredom or excitement, is enlightenment."

Dilgo Khyentse Fellowship Shechen
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby udawa » Thu May 30, 2013 10:49 am

MalaBeads wrote:Most of you have probably already seen this. It is readily available on the Internet and it pertains directly I think to the OP question. I am pretty far from being able to follow this advice in all moments but I use it as an inspiration and it is very effective as such.

It has been attributed to HH Dilgo Khyentse but I have also seen suggestion that it was actually written by Chogyam Trungpa Rinoche. I really don't know and don't care who wrote it. That is not at all the point of posting it and please do not turn this post into that discussion.

Read it and be inspired.




Not so bothered about the misattribution - how wonderful to think it might have been created by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. However, the original text is the teaching of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and very wonderful it is.

The text you have posted is a partial and adulterated version of the teaching called 'The Way of Maha Ati' which was given by Trungpa Rinpoche to Rigdzin Shikpo. People who are interested can find out more on this earlier thread http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7286&p=86935#p86935.

The original is published in volume one of Trungpa Rinpoche's collected works http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=7w7haFHtlmAC&pg=PA461&dq=way+of+maha+ati&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xxKnUbjQIu-p0AWSpoDwCw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=way%20of%20maha%20ati&f=false

'Hollow rhetoric' indeed. And please spare us the marmots.

D
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby In the bone yard » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:23 pm

Would it be logical to say that once there is realization, there's no more practice (even at the stage of non-meditation there is still practice)?
If an individual is capable of full enlightenment upon realization what is the purpose of coming back?
The path had already been completed in the last life!

Until karma is depleted there will always be a path. If a realized being dies before completing the path then the path must continue in the next life.
They'll choose their rebirth according to their karma.
So they will either continue ridding of imprints, or they will have learned the meditation and be finishing the path by ridding of obscruities to omniscience (full enlightenment).
Not sure how this helps anyone, asking these types of questions... seems more like a distraction to me! :jumping:
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby lobster » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:10 pm

In the bone yard wrote:Would it be logical to say that once there is realization, there's no more practice (even at the stage of non-meditation there is still practice)?


Image

So it depends on the circumstances and role, if any, they wish to fulfill. Realization is 'inward meditation without form'. So it may or may not have a recognizable 'practice' or being. :popcorn:
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:40 pm

[quote="oldbob] Yes, language is self limiting, sometimes in seeming paradoxical ways[/quote]

I would agree that language is very self-limiting, unlike say, space itself which is as large as the Milky Way, or even the universe itself. Unlimited.

But we are here on a language-based internet forum. And that's the circumstance.

Beyond that, there is only practice.

An interesting side-note, thoughts are always language based.

:smile:

Ciao.
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby smcj » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:58 am

An interesting side-note, thoughts are always language based.

If so, then humans and animals that are without language would not be able to think.
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby MalaBeads » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:56 am

smcj wrote:
An interesting side-note, thoughts are always language based.

If so, then humans and animals that are without language would not be able to think.


Im not sure animals do "think"; that doesn't mean they don't communicate, however, or can't function in very straightforward ways. As for humans without language, I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Maybe it would be helpful to look at what we each mean by "language". I am referring to words. Maybe too simplistic?
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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby Roland » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:08 am

If one thinks of an image, is that image a thought? If an image arises in the mind, is that thought language? Or does it only become language based when one puts a label on it? For example, if an image of a tree arises, its not language until I recognize the image as a "tree" (usually instantly)...or can we communicate with images therefore categorizing said images as "language"?

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Re: What is the practice after Dzogchen realisation

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:03 am

smcj wrote:
An interesting side-note, thoughts are always language based.

If so, then humans and animals that are without language would not be able to think.


They'd still have perceptions and feelings, including being intuitively and sensorily drawn toward some things and repulsed by other things, and they'd have memories, which are just images and feelings, and they could learn patterns and recognize images based on that; they'd of course feel pleasure and displeasure. They'd have these sorts of mental experiences, but they would not be able to encapsulate them with words and expand upon them and form the more complex mental process we call thought.
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