True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Mon May 27, 2013 3:17 am

zamotcr wrote:Are Sambhogakayas eternal or they have a beginning and an ending? I think Shan Tao answer this issue of Amitabha's Paranirvana, but I don't know.



Sambhogakayas do have a beginning but do not have an ending. it's the beginning of the very first time a person attained Buddhahood(a.k.a Source). One attained the Bliss body, there after, the bliss is forever, we do not say when one attained Buddhahood, they will become deluded again. Dharmakaya, Truth body is the the one without beginning non ending. nirmanakaya always have a beginning and ending, on going cycle.

In the text, it describes Amitabha as nirmanakaya, sambhogakaya or dharmakaya. These 3 are simply different aspects of forms. Each kaya has 3 different facets. For example, the dharmakaya of dharmakaya is Buddha Samantabhadra; the sambhogakaya of dharmakaya is Vajradhara; the nirmanakayas of dharmakaya are the 5 lords of the buddha-families. So, Amitabha, as head of the Lotus family, is classified here as nirmanakaya. The dharmakaya of sambhogakaya is Vajradhara; the sambhogakaya of sambhogakaya is Vairochana Gangchentso; the nirmanakaya of sambhogakaya is Sakyamuni Buddha. The dharmakaya of nirmanakaya is Amitabha; the sambhogakaya of nirmanakaya is Chenrezig; the nirmanakaya of nirmanakaya is Guru Rinpoche. So, here, Amitabha is the dharmakaya.
http://www.purifymind.com/Amitabha.html

--------

this is interesting, that i've roughly translated from one chinese site. it say the difference between east PL and west PL.

2 kinds of Title of Buddha:
Common titles of Buddha: Are divided into Ten.
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/Dha ... htm#Buddha
Special titles of Buddha: Are divided into Two.
1. East : Are divided into Three. 1) Vairocana 2) Rocana 3) Shakyamuni¡
2) West : Amitabha--Dharmakaya are the same, different are the Nirmanakaya/Manifestation bodies , each carry infinity virtue.

2 kinds of EmBody of Buddha:
East : basically are Three.
Two kinds of Dharmakaya: 1) Dharma noumenon kaya 2) Dharma phenomena kaya.
Two kinds of Sambhogakaya : 1) Self usage 2)Others usage
Two kinds of Nirmanakaya : 1) Perfect bodies(ie 32 marks, historical Shakyamuni Buddha) 2) imperfect bodies (eg Grand Master Shan Dao).

West : Amitabha---Dharmakaya is the same as the east, but the Nirmanakaya is different. the Nirmanakaya is also equally to Dharmakaya. as even the imperfect bodies are able to redirect beings of infinity world into Buddha remembrance and lead them into western PL.

2 kinds of Abode:
East : 4 abodes are seperated, upper are able to see the lower, lower are not able to see the upper.
West : 4 abodes are inter-fused, upper and lower can see each other.

2 kinds of deliverance area:
East : Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya can deliver All ten directions.
while Nirmanakaya 1) perfect Nirmanakaya can deliver a Buddha-land 2) imperfect Nirmanakaya deliverance are limited.
West : All triple kayas can equally deliver All ten directions, for beings who are mindful of Buddha, like a big magnet , they are able to deliver them when the time is reaped.

2 kinds of cultivating cause
East : 4 teachings to cultivating cause, have many hinderance.
Collective---Like a lotus newborn, properly upgrade the 2 vehicles and unite the dully rooted bodhisattva.
Common---properly upgrade the junior bodhisattvas, and unite the 2 vehicles.
Special---properly upgrade the dully rooted bodhisattva of other doors, that have strong doubts.
Complete---Complete faiths, Complete realisation, Complete cultivation, Complete verification, properly upgrade the well-established bodhisattvas, doubts are light, Self-power cultivating, which is difficult.
West : teachings are inter-blending, Other-power cultivation, easy of the easy, lowest inferior grade when rebirth, in a single life attain Buddhahood, let along the medium or upper grades.

6 kinds of attaining Buddhahood:
-Principle based Buddha : All beings have Buddha-nature, as long as one have a mind, one's surely to be a Buddha.
-Title based Buddha : Acknowledge the self mind is Buddha, immediately enter the position.
-Contemplation based Buddha : Practice according to teachings, sever one's karma.
-One after another based Buddha : Sever delusions, Sever afflictions, Sever ignorance.
-Gradually verifing based Buddha : Gradually Sever 1 to 41 levels of ignorance
-Final based Buddha : Completely attain the Bodhi Nirvana.

2 kinds of great vow:
Ten Great Vows; 48 great vows.

Two kinds of Proper retribution of Buddha
East : Triple kayas rebirth into the 4 abodes are seperated.
West : Triple kayas are without hindrances. All 4 abodes are brilliantly adored.
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Mon May 27, 2013 9:57 am

sinweiy wrote:Sambhogakayas do have a beginning but do not have an ending. it's the beginning of the very first time a person attained Buddhahood(a.k.a Source). One attained the Bliss body, there after, the bliss is forever, we do not say when one attained Buddhahood, they will become deluded again. Dharmakaya, Truth body is the the one without beginning non ending. nirmanakaya always have a beginning and ending, on going cycle.


And that's why there was a debate regarding whether Amitabha is nirmanakaya or sambhogakaya. Shandao said it's the latter, consequently there is no end of Amitabha's presence to save all beings.

LastLegend wrote:My reasoning is this Pure Land and manifestations of Amitabha are conditioned relatively to Samsara that they are merely there to help sentient beings. They are still subject to change. We must remember that "lives" and anything that takes "forms" are subject to change. But does not mean nothing exists in a nihilistic sense. Apparently things come to into being due to conditions, and depart due to conditions ending. Where does Buddha go after Parinirvana?


Sukhavati is not within samsara, see the 10 worlds system. Although there is change since beings come and go, etc., similarly to the fourth dhyana related heavens and above, it is not destroyed by anything. Parinirvana is related to nirmanakaya buddhas only, and it is only a display to urge beings for liberation.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby LastLegend » Mon May 27, 2013 11:14 pm

Astus wrote:
Sukhavati is not within samsara, see the 10 worlds system. Although there is change since beings come and go, etc., similarly to the fourth dhyana related heavens and above, it is not destroyed by anything. Parinirvana is related to nirmanakaya buddhas only, and it is only a display to urge beings for liberation.


Astus, Pure Land is there to liberate sentient beings. If there are no sentient beings to liberate, will Pure Land be there?
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Mon May 27, 2013 11:59 pm

LastLegend wrote:Astus, Pure Land is there to liberate sentient beings. If there are no sentient beings to liberate, will Pure Land be there?


Of course, when there are no sentient beings there is no use of buddhas either. Alas, the number of beings to be liberated is endless.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby plwk » Tue May 28, 2013 1:38 am

Alas!
Sentient being of own mind, I/We vow to deliver
Learned Audience, all of us have now declared that we vow to deliver an infinite number of sentient beings; but what does that mean?
It does not mean that I, Hui Neng, am going to deliver them. And who are these sentient beings within our mind?
They are the delusive mind, the deceitful mind, the evil mind, and such like minds -- all these are sentient beings.
Each of them has to deliver himself by means of his own Essence of Mind. Then the deliverance is genuine.


:tongue:
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Tue May 28, 2013 1:49 am

so to speak, nirmanakaya is 'from' sambhogakaya. sambhogakaya is 'from' Dharmakaya. nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya are 'from' Dharmakaya. :smile:

there are different naming:

Amitabha is an Emanation body; the corresponding Enjoyment body is Amitayus, "infinite life"-propitiated for longevity; the Dharma body is Ananta-prabha, "boundless illumination."
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Tue May 28, 2013 2:06 am

The life of the Buddha of Infinite Life is so long that it is impossible for anyone to calculate it. To give an illustration, let us suppose that all the innumerable sentient beings in the worlds of the ten quarters were reborn in human form and that every one became a shravaka or pratyekabuddha. Even if they assembled in one place, concentrated their thoughts, and exercised the power of their wisdom to the utmost to reckon the length of the Buddha's life, even after a thousand million kalpas they still would not reach its limit.

----

In conclusion, one asamkhyeya may be as small as 10^51
or as large as 10^74,436,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, or somewhere
in between, depending on the text source..


when the mind cannot contain the number, Buddha uses comparision and in modern science, they use ^ to the power of(exponential function).
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Tue May 28, 2013 10:11 am

sinweiy wrote:Amitabha is an Emanation body; the corresponding Enjoyment body is Amitayus, "infinite life"-propitiated for longevity; the Dharma body is Ananta-prabha, "boundless illumination."


That's not the same as what is taught in the Pure Land schools, but the Tibetan interpretation.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Tue May 28, 2013 2:42 pm

Astus wrote:That's not the same as what is taught in the Pure Land schools, but the Tibetan interpretation.


yea, mostly they are taught of the first two, Amitabha (infinite light) and Amitayus (infinity life).
though if one recite Amituofo in chinese,
'A' mean No. mituo mean finite. 'fo' mean Buddha(s)
hence Amituo-fo already encompasses Infinite Buddha(s)

from Japanese PL:

There is a passage from the Avatamsaka Sutra (Book5,9.Gatha)

Some lands have a Buddha
And some land do not.
Some have just one Buddha
And some have countless Buddhas.

If a land has no Buddha,
Then a Buddha from another world
Will mistically appear there
To manifest the works of Buddhas-

Our world, the Southern Jambudvipa was without a Buddha,so Shakyamuni mistically appeared here, to teach us the activity of Amida Buddha. He Did not intended to teach a supramundane doctrine,only wanted to reveal the 48 vows of Amitabha, especially of his 18.th vow. In this vow Amida promised us, that whoever think of Him, or utter His Name, with faith that person in the end of the life will enter in His Paradise, moreover He will appear at his deathbed,and personally escort him to the Pure Land.
Amitabha is the primordial Buddha,and His Land is out of the Samsara.
Shakyamuni many times called the Nirvana as Amita. This Land is an environmental appearence of Nirvana. As Vasubandhu wrote in the Jodoron:

"The adornaments of the Land of Amitayus Buddha are phenomenal
aspects of a wondreous realm wich has arisen from the utmost reality."

Amida Buddha incarnated Himself as Dharmakara Bodhisattva in order to
create the Pure Land. His Name has three meaning:

1."The letter "A" of the Dharma" (The A is the symbol of the Pure
Land and Amitabha)
2."The essential mode of Dharma activity.
3."Dharma Tresury".

Amitabha, the Dharma Treasury (That is, Dharmakara) with essential
mode of Dharma-activity, created the Pure Land.

The Dharma Tresure has four parts: Nitya (permanence)
Sukha (blessing) Atman (true self) Subha (purity)

They are called the Four Gunaparamita, and are in contrast to the Trilakshana, wich is: Anitya (Impermanence), Dukha(suffering),Anatman (no-self),
as well as to Asubha(impurity).

So Dharmakara Bodhisattva inkarnated from Dharmakaya Amitabha, (Lokanatha Amitabha, or Lokesvararaja,also known in His secret Name as HRIH) created the Pure Land and become Samboghakaya Amitabha. His emanation (Nirmanakaya Amitabha) appeared in our world as Shakyamuni Buddha.NAMUAMIDABUTSU --Rev.Anraku
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Tue May 28, 2013 3:51 pm

Who is this Rev. Anraku you quote from, what is the source?

Here is a short series of answers regarding Amitabha from a Shinshu perspective: Amida Buddha

And the Jodoshu view: Buddhas

As for the word Amituo/Amida (阿彌陀 / 阿弥陀), it is just the transliteration of the Sanskrit word "amita":

amita 2 mfn. (3 %{mA}) , unmeasured , boundless , infinite RV. &c. ; without a certain measure S3Br. Sus3r. &c. ; (%{a4-mitam}) ind. immensely RV. iv , 16 , 5.

It is related to words like "measure" and "metre" via the *med- root.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue May 28, 2013 11:48 pm

Concerning the 18th vow,if Amitabha Buddha goes into parinirvana and Bodhisattva who hears the worlds crys takes over his pureland and his name and the western purelands name gets changeded.doesnt that nullify the 18th vow?

Wouldnt that mean if a person comes across the 18th vow,and wishes to be reborn into Amtabhas pureland,he will not be reborn there since Amitabha is nolonger the Buddha there since he has went into parinirvana?

Then again the larger sutra will be the last sutra to remain in the world for 100 more years,I guess when the sutra disappears Amitabha will parinirvana and be replaced by his Bodhisattva.
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Wed May 29, 2013 2:24 am

Astus wrote:Who is this Rev. Anraku you quote from, what is the source?


he used to be from esangha i met last time, studing Japanese PL. that's his email. although i am not into Jap PL. :smile:

anyway i find that since the Dharma body, Ananta-prabha, is "boundless illumination", that itself is already similar to 'Infinite Light', Amitabha. i mean Pure Land schools, can also interprete Amitabha into a Dharma body, using the triple bodies that all Buddhas have. why must it be a credit of Tibetan interpretation?

i was taught by MCK, that there are 3 kind of gate in Buddhism. Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. One is Proper or learning gate, as represented by Dharma, eg TienTai, Theravāda. Then the sudden fast gate or Realisation gate, as reprented by Buddha, eg Zen. The third is Purification gate, as represented by Tibetan Buddhism, and Pureland school. Tibetan Buddhism, and Pureland are both from similar Purification gate. but Tibetan Buddhism are more into purifying amidst impurity(samsara), while Pureland school purify by leave impurity. that mean Pureland school aspire to leave samsara and reborn in PL.
:namaste:
_/\_
Amituofo!

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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby sinweiy » Wed May 29, 2013 2:39 am

Son of Buddha wrote:Concerning the 18th vow,if Amitabha Buddha goes into parinirvana and Bodhisattva who hears the worlds crys takes over his pureland and his name and the western purelands name gets changeded.doesnt that nullify the 18th vow?

Wouldnt that mean if a person comes across the 18th vow,and wishes to be reborn into Amtabhas pureland,he will not be reborn there since Amitabha is nolonger the Buddha there since he has went into parinirvana?

Then again the larger sutra will be the last sutra to remain in the world for 100 more years,I guess when the sutra disappears Amitabha will parinirvana and be replaced by his Bodhisattva.


Amitabha sutra is the last sutra, followed by just the word Namo Amitabha for another 100 years, then just Amitabha for another 100 yrs. but that's just way within ONE small kalpa time. its way way way early for Amitabha to parinirvana. if i am using actual figure, Amitabha will still be here for another measureless, limitless Asankhyeya (Great) kalpas!

since
in the Amitabha Sutra we see:-
Moreover, Shariputra, the life of that Buddha and that of his people extends for measureless, limitless Asankhyeya kalpas . For this reason he is called Amitabha.

measureless, limitless Asankhyeya kalpas can represent number units of Buddhism.
1 Asankhyeya = 10^74,436,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
measureless = Asankhyeya x Asankhyeya
limitless = measureless x measureless.
the number is already mind boggling!

so, along the way, more sentient beings will have the affinity to see Guan Yin attain Buddhahood. like for me i vowed to see Guan Yin attain Buddhahood in western PL. so if i attain rebirth in PL now, i am still a bodhisattva for measureless, limitless Asankhyeya kalpas until i witness Guan Yin attain Buddhahood. :smile:
_/\_
Amituofo!

"Enlightenment is to turn around and see MY own mistake, Other's mistake is also my mistake. Others are right even if they are wrong. i'm wrong even if i'm right. " - Master Chin Kung
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Wed May 29, 2013 10:29 am

sinweiy wrote:he used to be from esangha i met last time, studing Japanese PL. that's his email. although i am not into Jap PL. :smile:

using the triple bodies that all Buddhas have. why must it be a credit of Tibetan interpretation?

i was taught by MCK, that there are 3 kind of gate in Buddhism. Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.


In that case I think I know who Rev. Anraku was (died a few years ago), and he wasn't really a representative of any actual Japanese Pure Land school, plus he had some peculiar ideas about Buddhism.

Amitabha Buddha as he appears in his land is sambhogakaya. Of course, just as every buddha, there is dharmakaya, however, it is generally irrelevant for the Pure Land path. Dharmakaya is simply the ultimate reality, and for ordinary deluded beings it is imperceptible. You can see that briefly explained on the Shinshu explanation regarding Amitabha I linked in my previous post.

What I referred to as Tibetan is the idea that Amitabha is nirmanakaya and Amitayus is sambhogakaya. In East Asia the two names are not differentiated that way, they are names for the same buddha. So, when they say Amituo or Amida, it stands for both names.

As for MCK's categorisation of different Buddhist paths, that's his interpretation. In Jodoshu and Shinshu the Pure Land gate (Jodomon) is contrasted with the gate of the sages (i.e. every other Buddhist schools where they try to attain enlightenment through wisdom). This site sums up Honen's ways of selecting the exclusive nenbutsu as the correct path: The Process of Senchaku. Shinran gives a similar explanation: Kyogyoshinsho 6.35-36. As for Chinese Pure Land teachings, there are many views depending on teachers.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Son of Buddha » Wed May 29, 2013 8:52 pm

Hey Astus

what does the True Pureland sects say about the sutras that say Amitabha Buddha will be going into Parinirvana???

or do they not have any material that covers that subject?

Peace and Love
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Wed May 29, 2013 8:58 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:what does the True Pureland sects say about the sutras that say Amitabha Buddha will be going into Parinirvana???
or do they not have any material that covers that subject?


I'm sorry but I have no knowledge whether anyone has addressed that issue. Maybe someone did, maybe not. I don't have the sources to answer.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby LastLegend » Wed May 29, 2013 9:59 pm

Astus wrote:
What I referred to as Tibetan is the idea that Amitabha is nirmanakaya and Amitayus is sambhogakaya. In East Asia the two names are not differentiated that way, they are names for the same buddha. So, when they say Amituo or Amida, it stands for both names.


If Nirmanakaya is the physical manifestitation, then Sambhogakaya is the mental manifestation such as wisdom or compassion. Then the two cannot be separated.
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Astus » Wed May 29, 2013 10:19 pm

LastLegend wrote:If Nirmanakaya is the physical manifestitation, then Sambhogakaya is the mental manifestation such as wisdom or compassion. Then the two cannot be separated.


There are many interpretations of the three bodies teaching, just like practically every Buddhist doctrine have various meanings taught by different masters. Still, such a distinction what you say about physical and mental is is something influenced by our modern concepts. Something that has a form is rupa, and sambhogakaya buddhas definitely have forms and bodies, it's just a different kind than the nirmanakaya, similarly to the difference between gods and humans.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby LastLegend » Wed May 29, 2013 10:42 pm

Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:If Nirmanakaya is the physical manifestitation, then Sambhogakaya is the mental manifestation such as wisdom or compassion. Then the two cannot be separated.


There are many interpretations of the three bodies teaching, just like practically every Buddhist doctrine have various meanings taught by different masters. Still, such a distinction what you say about physical and mental is is something influenced by our modern concepts. Something that has a form is rupa, and sambhogakaya buddhas definitely have forms and bodies, it's just a different kind than the nirmanakaya, similarly to the difference between gods and humans.


I see.

Sambhogakaya form is a result of cultivation over many life times. Nirmanakaya is when the Buddha manifests in physical forms.
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Re: True Pure Land and Parinirvana

Postby Dodatsu » Wed May 29, 2013 11:59 pm

Son of Buddha wrote:Hey Astus

what does the True Pureland sects say about the sutras that say Amitabha Buddha will be going into Parinirvana???

or do they not have any material that covers that subject?

Peace and Love


Shin Buddhism does not really talk about Amida Buddha going into Parinirvana, although Shandao (Zendo) does refer to it in his "Commentary on the Contemplation Sutra" and Shinran Shonin quotes it in the "Chapter on the True Buddha Land":

Question: When you say "fulfilled," it is assumed that it is eternal and forever free of arising and perishing. Why, then, is it stated in the Sutra of Avalokitesvara's Prediction of Enlightenment, "There is a time when Amida Buddha also enters nirvana." How is this passage to be interpreted?

Answer: The meaning of "entering" and "not entering" nirvana pertains only to the realm of Buddhas; the shallow wisdoms of those of the three vehicles cannot have even a glimpse of it. Much less, then, can it be easily understood by the small and foolish. Nevertheless, if you urgently feel that you must know, the matter may be clarified through drawing on the Buddhist sutras. The chapter "Nirvana is Not Illusory" of the Larger Prajnaparamita Sutra states:

The Buddha said to Subhuti, "What are your thoughts? Suppose an illusory man creates an illusory man. Is this illusion quite real and nonempty or not?"

Subhuti said, "It is not, World-honored one."

The Buddha said to Subhuti, "Form is illusion. Sensation, perception, will, and consciousness are illusion. Even all-knowing wisdom is illusion.

Subhuti said to the Buddha, "World-honored one, are dharmas of the world illusion? And are supramundane dharmas also illusion? The four bases of mindfulness, four right efforts, four supernatural powers, five faculties, five powers, seven factors for awakening, eightfold noble path, and three gates of emancipation; the Buddha's ten powers, four fearlessnesses, four kinds of unhindered wisdom, and eighteen special qualities; the results of practices of various dharmas; and the wise and the sages - stream-enterers, once-returners, nonreturners, arhats, pratyekabuddhas, bodhisattva-mahasattvas, and all Buddhas, world-honored ones - are all these illusion?

The Buddha said to Subhuti, "All dharmas are illusion. Among them, there are the illusory dharmas of sravakas. There are the illusory dharmas of pratyekabuddhas. There are the illusory dharmas of bodhisattvas. There are the illusory dharmas of Buddhas. There are the illusory dharmas of blind passions. There are the illusory dharmas of karmic causation. For this reason, Subhuti, all dharmas are illusion."

Subhuti said to the Buddha, "Regarding the sundering of blind passions, World-honored one, the fruits of stream-enterer, once-returner, nonreturner, and arhat, and the path of pratyekabuddhas lie in cutting off the residual energy of blind passions. Are all these illusion?"

The Buddha said to Subhuti, "All dharmas, as long as they have the aspect of arising and perishing, are illusion."

Subhuti said, "World-honored one, what dharma is not illusion?"

The Buddha said, "The dharma free of arising and perishing is not illusion."

Subhuti said, "What is it that, neither arising nor perishing, is not illusion?"

The Buddha said, "Nirvana, which is not delusive - this dharma is not illusion."

"World-honored one, you the Buddha have yourself taught that all dharmas are characterized by equality and are not created by sravakas, not created by pratyekabuddhas, not created by bodhisattva-mahasattvas, not created by Buddhas. Whether or not there is a Buddha, the nature of all dharmas is always emptiness. Emptiness is itself nirvana. How is it that the one dharma of nirvana is not illusion?"

The Buddha said to Subhuti, "It is so! It is so! All dharmas are characterized by equality and are not creations of sravakas and so forth; emptiness is itself nirvana. If bodhisattvas who have newly awakened aspiration hear that all dharmas are ultimately empty and so on, and that even nirvana is illusion, their hearts will be seized with surprise and fear. For the sake of bodhisattvas who have newly awakened aspiration, I deliberately make a distinction, saying that what arises and perishes is illusion, while that which neither arises nor perishes is not illusion."

We know clearly from this sacred teaching that Amida is definitely a fulfilled body. Even if he should enter nirvana, there is no contradiction. All wise people should reflect on this.


Also, one should remember that the interpretation on the concept of Nirvana differs in the Mahayana and Theravada traditions.
Contemplating the power of Tathagata's Primal Vow,
One sees that no foolish being who encounters it passes by in vain.
When a person single-heartedly practices the saying of the Name alone,
It brings quickly to fullness and perfection [in that person] the great treasure ocean of true and real virtues.
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