How does one's karma produce external events?

[Luke]

I could find it understandable if a person later experienced some type of mental suffering in his/her present life or next life as a result of doing some bad action; however, I have trouble seeing how committing a negative action can result in the external environment doing something bad to that person at a precise moment in the future.

For example, imagine that a serial killer is out camping and that a lose rock falls off a nearby cliff, lands on his head, and kills him as a result of his negative karma. How can karma--which, if I understand correctly, is "stored" in one's mind--cause the external environment to produce such results in reaction to one's past actions?

I suppose that some people may say that there is no "outer" reality and that it's all mind, but if that's so, then I would like to understand the details of exactly how that works.

[ground]

... I would like to understand the details of exactly how that works.

Grasping never entails understanding.

Without cultivating and practicing right supramundane view there is no chance to ever "understand" (meant non-dialectically) karma and its effects.

(38) It is no secret that empty entities like reflections and so forth depend on a collocation [of causes and conditions], and that a cognition may be produced in the form of an image of such empty reflections, for example. All entities are, in a similar fashion, not only empty [as effects], but they are also produced out of empty [causes]. According to the two truths [entities possess] no intrinsic being, and therefore they are not permanent, nor are they subject to annihilation.
(39) No [action] is terminated through its intrinsic nature, and consequently one must understand that even without any repository for its efficacy, and despite the lapse of a considerable period of time following termination of the action, the fruit [of that action] will materialize somewhere.

Candrakirti, Madhyamakavatara

Kind regards

[ronnewmexico]

Luke

I of course am only a uneducated layperson but will venture a guess...

REality is ourselves. How it presents to us though not obvious is not random. It is like a intricate web of cause and effect with the web strings as awareness. It is really very very complex and intricate, beyond the actual observation if one has concept as filter.

It is like a centrifuge precipitating out. A solidity is through cause ignorance and hibitual inclination/tendency, made to exist. This realm this life, as solid. So as solid it is like a nail on our finger a part not aware, but a function of a aware thing. So really it is the same. Nails are part of body.

So what appears to be nonconnected.... a rock crushing a person is really a related to aware thing.
As related in this fashion it serves only to exercise its origination, which is self expression/delusion. Aspect of this delusion is karma and exerciseing or playing out of karmic effect.

So like nails are to body so is real solid event to awareness/cognition/mind. Nails only play out body, or function in relation to body. So this realm and events in it only playsout or functions in relation to awareness. Keep in mind awareness is not simple awareness, but a cognitive function. Which includes habitual aspect and all the rest. Misconstrued but essentially.... as if it were a thing solely invented to understand..anything. Which is the basis. Consciouness/mind. So like a cart with a broken wheel self and other ignorance, drives the cart a certain way.That cart is on the way to creation of karma and a playng out of the karma due to the effect of the broken part. That which misconstruces this understanding machine we may be to be a self that understands.

I can elaborate, this layperson of little understanding, in some manner. Probably quite inefficiently
I can express only what I find but can substantiate much of it in buddhist thought, and provide that if requested.

[Individual]

I could find it understandable if a person later experienced some type of mental suffering in his/her present life or next life as a result of doing some bad action; however, I have trouble seeing how committing a negative action can result in the external environment doing something bad to that person at a precise moment in the future.

For example, imagine that a serial killer is out camping and that a lose rock falls off a nearby cliff, lands on his head, and kills him as a result of his negative karma. How can karma--which, if I understand correctly, is "stored" in one's mind--cause the external environment to produce such results in reaction to one's past actions?

I suppose that some people may say that there is no "outer" reality and that it's all mind, but if that's so, then I would like to understand the details of exactly how that works.

What's the purpose in discussing this sort of thing?

[Luke]

What's the purpose in discussing this sort of thing?

Increasing my understanding of Buddhism and karma.

[Individual]

REality is ourselves.

Only when you close your eyes, cover your ears, and go, "Lalalalalala"

I am only a figment of your imagination!

What's the purpose in discussing this sort of thing?

Increasing my understanding of Buddhism and karma.

Pardon the stupid question, but could you expand on that?

[Heruka]

luke, in a general, simple way, i think its better to know yourself first, then karma will also be knowable. i dont think much book reading can help in that way. there is an aspect of our nature, its like an energy that helps things grow, like the conditions that create a cyrstal latice or matrix to evolve, an out flow. then we can begin to understand our nature, ourselves.

dharma is experience, not text knowledge.

you have to practice.

[ronnewmexico]

"REality is ourselves. How it presents to us though not obvious is not random. It is like a intricate web of cause and effect with the web strings as awareness. It is really very very complex and intricate, beyond the actual observation if one has concept as filter."

"In this context, we can say then that the ultimate creator of all phenomena, both samsara and nirvana is the mind"

" All phenomenal existence, all the things of cyclic existence and nirvana,
Are the discernible manifestations of the unique essential nature of one's own mind."

"When real and unreal both
Are absent from before the mind.
Nothing else remains for mind to do
But rest in perfect peace, from concepts free"

"Pleasure pain or others lie indualistic thoughts.
Yet the mind is empty of any reality"

"All things that appear are manifestations of mind
The surrounding environment which appears to be inanimate that too is mind.
The sentient life-forms which appear as the six classes of living being,
they too are mind."

"All phenomena are (ultimately) selfless, empty, and free from conceptual elaboration.
In their dynamic they resemble an illusion, mirage, dream, or reflected image.
A celestial city, an echo, a reflection of the moon in water, a bubble, an optical illusion, or an intangible emanation,"


So I lie not alone in my view. If fact accompanied in that with some quite esteemable peoples whose sandles I am not worthy of being a flea upon. Only to show that this view is not singular nor unique nor rare do.... I combine my statement with theirs. The first quote only is mine, and partial quote only it is.

REality and its characteristics are perceived not through exculsionary techniques as described but by study of mind which is the closest thing to us that may be studied. Exculsion brings a happy dopey state of no understanding. Undertaking any and all eventualities of mind and its interactions is the greatest teacher to my opinion. And my opinion on that is likewise not singular, not in the slightest. Though I do not claim it a necessarily superior view to any other.

Good luck with that LALA stuff...I expect like eternalism and nihilism it will not prevent unfortunate nor unwanted rebirth of any kind.

[Huifeng]

I could find it understandable if a person later experienced some type of mental suffering in his/her present life or next life as a result of doing some bad action; however, I have trouble seeing how committing a negative action can result in the external environment doing something bad to that person at a precise moment in the future.

For example, imagine that a serial killer is out camping and that a lose rock falls off a nearby cliff, lands on his head, and kills him as a result of his negative karma. How can karma--which, if I understand correctly, is "stored" in one's mind--cause the external environment to produce such results in reaction to one's past actions?

I suppose that some people may say that there is no "outer" reality and that it's all mind, but if that's so, then I would like to understand the details of exactly how that works.

Probably depends on which model of karma one wishes to use. There are several.

If one takes a late Vijnaptimatra model, then it is easy: both the perceiver and the perceived arise from the alaya; ie. arise from karmic seeds. But of course, this definition of "karma" and result is somewhat different, much broader, than the earlier definitions.

[Luke]

Probably depends on which model of karma one wishes to use. There are several.

If one takes a late Vijnaptimatra model, then it is easy: both the perceiver and the perceived arise from the alaya; ie. arise from karmic seeds. But of course, this definition of "karma" and result is somewhat different, much broader, than the earlier definitions.

Thank you for your reply, Ven. Huifeng.

Which books or websites do you think I should read if I want to find out more about the different models of karma?